9/23 Tink PMPS 58. Shot 1hr late at 88. +1=123, +2=137

EDITED for PM - Wasn't sure if I should edit subject line or start new thread. Please see my comment from this evening in messages below! Not really a 911, but I need a quick response. Will remove the 911 once I have attention.

Yesterday: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=125740

Tink had a lovely day yesterday! This morning's preshot is higher than I thought it would be, but still reasonable (at this point).

I did notice on Friday that Tink's stool was larger and lighter than normal, with more moisture. Since switching to canned food they're normally quite small, dark and firm. Thought at first it was just a sign of better hydration since I've been adding water to his food, plus the zucchini he's been getting. But then this morning I see there is a fresh sample in the box that is similar, but has "pudding" around it. Not necessarily his... but I have a suspicion. Hmmmm...

Tink also refused his food at first this morning. I had a feeling he was not quite himself. Last two mornings I've had to go find him - whereas he's normally waiting for me at my bedroom door. Could just be that it's darker earlier. For whatever reason, I decided I should really start feeding BEFORE giving his AM shot - so I did. I added the water as usual (I do add quite a bit) - he licked at it a few times and walked away!! So, in a panic, I just gave him some fresh food without water. He ate it, but a bit slower than usual. Then we gave his shot.

I'm hoping this is just a quick little "blah" thing and nothing major. Could be a pancreatitis flare up maybe? Just not sure if a vet visit is in order yet. He seems fine. Fleas have been driving him and everyone else batty. Nothing works this year except diatamaceous earth, but it needs to be applied basically daily - which I'm horrible at. We always used Advantage, but I can almost hear the fleas laughing at me this year. Frontline, same thing. Activyl KINDA worked - but not well enough to justify the crazy expense for all 4 cats and two dogs. In any case, I doubt the fleas have anything to do with it. Weather's been great, but we are into those crisp fall mornings now - so maybe just a temp swing thing? I know I'm all stuffy myself.

I've also noticed that Tink has become a drooler. He's always drooled a little while being petted... but it's getting noticeably worse and he pretty much always has a wet chin now. The vet said his teeth looked amazing, but I think I might have them do a dental anyway. This morning he was laying on my paper copy of his SS and a few minutes later I went to get it and there was LITERALLY a puddle on it! I couldn't figure out what it was, but I THINK it was cat drool. It looked like someone spilled something, but no humans had been near it with any liquids. It did not appear to be urine (which was my other thought). With him eating his food so slowly this morning, it's quite possible a tooth is bothering him. Or his tummy is upset. Maybe still from the carb loading the other day, due to his low bgs??

Re: 9/23 Tink AMPS 251 - runny poo?

Not much advice here on the poo, but I am sure there will be voices of experience seeing your question soon.


We use Fortiflora for our guy when there is pudding poo (and sometimes to increase his appy, he thinks it is delicious most of the time).

Anne

Re: 9/23 Tink AMPS 251 - runny poo?

For the most part, increasing his appetite is the LAST thing we need. He might eat one of the other cats! :lol: But, I have heard good things about fortiflora. Curious if there are similar products NOT made by Purina. I've never been a fan of theirs. I know a local pet "health" food store by me sells digestive enzymes for critters - wonder if that'd do the same thing or not.

I hadn't thought about it possibly being a result of all the food I pumped into him the other night until I was writing my post this morning. He did eat some fancy feast and didn't care for it - wonder if it possibly upset him. Could be part of it -though the initial texture change happened prior to that.

Re: 9/23 Tink AMPS 251 - runny poo?

I found that Neko's GI track doesn't react well to too much wheat, and that's what's in the FF gravy. I switched to Merck Cowboy Cookout which has the same number of carbs as HC, but gets it's carbs from veggies (potato mostly). The other thing that can help diarrhea is adding pure pumpkin (no spices) or babyfood squash, which is what I use. Neko gets 1/4 tsp AM and PM.

Tink's reduced appetite could also be because he's been running in some nicer numbers lately.

Re: 9/23 Tink AMPS 251 - runny poo?

Good point. I hadn't thought about the numbers being closer to normal range and how that could affect appetite.

I'll continue to monitor for now.

Tink has always been corn free - can't recall if wheat was in his old kibble or not, but I dont think it was. Not predominantly at least - main grain was rice. I didn't even look at the ingredients on the FF because it was basically just an emergency thing. But he could easily be sensitive to it.

I'll be sure to pick up some better hc varieties that are more similar to his normal diet.

I may try the squash baby food idea too. He has been getting an ounce of sliced zucchini (which is about a 1/2" slice of a small zucchini) almost daily. His stools were very hard and dry for awhile and this seemed to help. But now they're on the large/wet side - so who knows. Maybe the FF, maybe too much zucc, maybe something else entirely.

He doesn't SEEM to feel bad - still cuddling up with other cats more often than not, sleeping in all his usual favorite places, etc. All he really does is sleep, but he's pretty much always lived by the "eat, poop, sleep" rule (in no particular order). :lol:

Re: 9/23 Tink AMPS 251 - runny poo?

Hi there

JenM said:

But then this morning I see there is a fresh sample in the box that is similar, but has "pudding" around it. Not necessarily his... but I have a suspicion. Hmmmm...

Click to expand...

Can you isolate him, along with an LB, to verify it is his?

JenM said:

I've also noticed that Tink has become a drooler. He's always drooled a little while being petted... but it's getting noticeably worse and he pretty much always has a wet chin now. The vet said his teeth looked amazing, but I think I might have them do a dental anyway.

Click to expand...

Drooling may be due to teeth problems. The only way to properly evalute a kittys teeth and gums is while under anesthesia. There could be trouble under the gumline. A veterinary dental specialist would be ideal.

Although bad teeth and gums was his Achilles heel, BK was never a drooler. Still vets always asked the question.
I'm not sure if drooling may be a symptom of something other than teeth problems - hopefully others will share their experiences.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Ok... MAJOR curveball tonight. PMPS is 58. HOW? But more importantly... when/how much do I shoot????

He continues to have soft stool (they're large enough to be from my small dog!). I tried to get a ketone test but got to the box too late. It appears he left a little of his zucchini on the floor, and I dont know if he ate his +4 meal or someone else did (our cats are half vulture, so who knows). Tink normally wont let anyone take HIS food, but if he walks away from it, all bets are off. Only meal I SAW him eat was at AMPS and a little bit at +2. He ate both very slowly but did finish.

I'm guessing he may have walked away from his +4 meal. But... I wonder... how low did he GO if he's 58 now. He just scarfed down his normal PMPS meal. I have NOT yet given a shot and will not until I get advice. VERY not comfortable shooting this low.

What do I do??? I hate to skip and lose all the progress we've made... but stalling too long will make a +2 impossible in the morning.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Wait 20-30 minutes, WITHOUT FEEDING, and test again to see if he's coming up.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Sorry, just noticed you fed. In future, don't feed cause you don't want food to influence the numbers. I'd still wait and retest and see what you get.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Oh. Oops. Ok. It's been 30 (time flies) so I'll retest now.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Jen,
I lean toward your 'pancreatitis flare' trying to start. KT started that kind of poop when he started having trouble. His bg also was quite low because he either wouldn't eat or he wasn't absorbing the food. I don't know that this is Tink's issue but wanted to put it on the table.

I'd sure hold on that shot at a 58 for as long as you can - if he doesn't show signs of coming up substantially by time you're too far off schedule and he's NOT KETONE PRONE, I'd either skip or give a greatly reduced dose.

HUGS!

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Ok, just tested 30 min after PMPS (about 25min after he finished his food) and he's at 73.

When he's headed down, his regular food doesn't seem to have much effect (see my attempts at getting him up the other day, had to break out mc and then hc). But... still hard to know what he's truly doing since I fed him already.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

OH... and I dont know if he's considered "ketone prone" or not. He WAS in full DKA when diagnosed. But he's never had any since.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

It looks from your spreadsheet like he "scarfed" down his dinner. If so, take a look at this explanation below about shooting low and consider going for it.

If he's not eating, that would be reason to be more cautious. But if all is normal tonight, shooting low can be a game-changer in a really good way.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=121668&p=1266813#p1266813

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

He did scarf down his dinner. However I do worry because last night and this morning, his appetite wasn't much (which is REALLY odd for him). I do have some mc and hc as well as honey and karo on hand. And I'm home for the night. I'll get another test in a couple minutes and see what ya'll think.

I'd love to "shoot low to stay low"... though I wont lie that it doesn't scare the CRAP out of me. Especially as hard as it was to get his numbers to move the other day. I got him to eat 8oz of food in 2hrs - and that's what it took to keep him over 50.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

don't push yourself to do it if you're uncertain about him. there will be another time - do it when you're confident he's feeling normal. i just wanted to make sure you have that info. If you have the opportunity once, you'll likely have it again.

the response from shooting normal numbers is one of those counter-intuitive things about FD. Kinda like NDW - increase the dose and the numbers go up. FD seems full of those things.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

was the day you had a hard time keeping him up the evening of 9/20? If so, he started at 213 that night.

Starting low is completely different.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

One thing to consider is that shooting late acts like a bit of a dose reduction. If you get another test, how long after normal PMPS is it?

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Ok, we're at 88 now, at +13 (+1 from normal PMPS). Though that number is undoubtedly at least semi food induced.

Go ahead and shoot? Obviously I'll be keeping a close eye.

And yes, that was the day I had difficulty.

The shoot low thing makes sense - assuming Tink follows the rules and doesn't plummet as he likes to do. It's scary since he doesn't have far to fall... but if FD has different rules for low numbers, it totally makes sense (at least... ya know... as much as FD CAN make sense) :roll:

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Ok. I did it. nailbite_smile Gave his regular dose at 6:10pm (just over an hour after his usual shot time).

Should I feed him again now, since it's the new PS? Or just stick with what's in his belly from an hour ago? And, should I get something sooner than a +2 or wait till then?

You BETTER play by the RULES Sir Tink!!!

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

jen, can you take off the 911 now? it's such a heart-stopper and i think you were meaning to take it off after you got some input.

are you ok now?

If you've stalled an hour, as Wendy said, you've essentially reduced his dose by the delay.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

OH, oops. Yes, just did. Sorry.

Ok... we're ok. I'll post later if that changes! nailbite_smile He came up enough after eating that it doesn't SEEM like it's JUST the food talking... so hoping he was on his way up.

I'm a bit worried how LOW he may have gone during the day to have that low of a PS. Guess I'll never know, other than that he's alive so I guess it was ok. His +2 this morning showed a bit of a drop, but not enough that I'd think he was gonna crash. I did offer extra food, but given his appetite this AM, not sure how much of it he ate.

He was asking for food again when I opened a can (of human food), so he seems to be feeling better tonight.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

When you shoot your lowest ever yet, a +1 and a +2 are a good idea. I wouldn't overfeed him now, in case you need to feed him later.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Ok, will do. Thanks guys. Will update in an hour.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

You're assuming that he was lower before that 58, but there's no way to know. he may have been surfing along in blues and greens all day.

Take a look at the Shooting & Handling Low Numbers sticky, jen - especially the part on becoming Data Ready and on shooting low numbers.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Click to expand...

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

I want to comment on the poo and lack of appetite. Having dealt with pancreatitis both acute and chronic for several years, both can be symptoms of it. It also can be from the grains in the gravy if your cat is not used to it. Max has had the poo issue twice. The last time I bought flagyl and decided to give him a day before starting it and of course since I bought it, the poo returned to normal. My other cat was very sick with serious illnesses and was hospitalized twice for acute attacks and she did need flagyl. I often put baby food squash in Max's food like Wendy does. I think pumpkin has more fiber though. I hope the problem is from the grains. They don't seem to bother Max. His pancreatitis seems to be more stress related. Hope things are better soon.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

Thanks. I do have pumpkin too - in fact I have a couple in the garden and could freeze puree in ice cube trays for easy use. Or, I guess it'd make more sense to thaw and refreeze LAST year's puree into smaller containers and use the newer stuff for the beans. Then again, my cats usually eat better than the humans in this house... so...

Tink was diagnosed with pancreatitis when we did his blood panel, but was completely asymptomatic. They did NOT do the specFPL and I didn't know to ask for it. I thought by confirming that the "full panel" would test for pancreatitis and thyroid issues, I had covered my bases. So, although I was told he has it, we've never really dealt with it. We were given bupe, and used it, though I really didn't think he needed it. I know cats hide pain well - but a large part of me wanted to hang onto that stuff for when I MAY need it. But... since the vet knows he has it, I'm sure I can get more when needed.

I'll give the poo another day or two (assuming his appetite stays good) to resolve, then it'll be off to the vet if not. As long as it's going in and coming out, I dont care much what it looks like. :lol:

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

julie & punkin (ga) said:

You're assuming that he was lower before that 58, but there's no way to know. he may have been surfing along in blues and greens all day.

Take a look at the Shooting & Handling Low Numbers sticky, jen - especially the part on becoming Data Ready and on shooting low numbers.

Click to expand...

Ok... just re-read it. I've read it at least twice before, but so much info doesn't stick till I've seen it a few times.

I do find it a bit difficult though to apply some of the things mentioned though. For instance, when does onset usually occur? Well, for Tink... usually +2-3 - but other times he's already dropped 150pts by +2 for no reason other than a shift in the tides or something. He DOES seem to double dip sometimes (but not always or even most of the time, when I've managed to get +10-11's) - but I don't think I've ever seen his lowest number be at PS. Are all cats this crazy and "trend resistant"? I swear he's TRYING to drive me insane. :lol:

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

So far so good. +1 = 123

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

not all cats are so hard to read, but many are. that's where the ECID and "Know your own cat" sayings come from.

I know what you mean about reading and rereading. i still go back to the stickies and pick up new things - i've been doing this almost 4 years. It's like you have to be at the point where the info is relevant before it stays with you and makes sense.

Thanks for the +1. See you in an hour.

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

+2=137

I think we're in the clear as far as shooting low. Will get a +3 and probably feed then as well since it's their normal meal time. Wouldn't mind an early bedtime as I've been working on a headache all afternoon. Will definitely get something around +6 too. More frequent if +3 shows much movement.

Does that sound ok or do I need to get more tests in?

Also, just had a momentary freak-out. My dog likes to open the door. Which sucks when you have indoor cats. But, most of them wont dare cross the kitchen while she's in there, so they never get out. Still... when Sir Tink is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND and doesn't come to the treat bag shaking... one freaks out. After trudging around in the rain for a few minutes with the flashlight, rattling the treat bag - DD found him. He had apparently gotten curious and wound up locked in her bedroom closet. :lol:

Re: 9/23 Tink PMPS = 58 - what do I do???? And WTF???

i'd just handle it like any other +2/137. Looks like Tink is doing fine. If he stays flat on this cycle, you may have a lower amps than usual, so you might want to gear up mentally for what you're going to do if faced with that.

btw, can you give the updated #s in your subject line so it can be seen from the main page? thanks! just makes it easier to see if you need help or not.