11/18 Webster AMPS=331 +2=197 +3=97 +3.75=88 +5= 111

Webster's BG is dropped off fast once gain. He was falling off at 60 pt/hour so I fed him 3 treats. I tested again 1 hour later and he is at 97 - a drop of 100 in the past hour. I'm about to feed him a half dozen or so treats and retest 30-45 mins later.

Yesteday's numbers (11/17) viewtopic.php?f=9&t=128570

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Give him a couple of tsp of low carb food. That can often help them surf there.

And deep breaths for you. You can do this.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Mike

I wish I could stay with you and help you through this but Gracie has a vet appt and we are about to leave.

Can you give him 2 tsp of HC food with gravy and a drop or two of honey or karo? The treats might not be enough for this fast of a drop. When he's done eating, wait 30 mins and retest and if he's still dropping fast, do it again only just try two tsp gravy with karo. Lather rinse repeat alternating HC food/gravy with just gravy. Once you get him slowed, stop the karo.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

He's still transitioning into the low carb food. I have his old high carb dry food in a bowl next to his new low carb wet food. I gave him 6 temptation treats which seemed to spark his appetite a little. He was not interested in the low carb food at this time but took a few bites of his dry food.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Thank you. I was just on my way out the door to buy him some high calorie wet food when this happened. The only high calorie food that I have right now is his old dry food and the treats. I will try give him treats with a drop or two of karo.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

I see from your SS that you don't have HC wet right now. The carbs from dry food take longer to digest and get into the system. Karo or honey are just the opposite and get into the blood stream in about 15 or 20 minutes, great for stopping a fast drop. You can handle this, but it is a good idea to get MC and HC food for an emergency kit when you can.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

The dry food may not show up that quickly, but let's see what that test in 30 minutes says. Webster does like to drop fast in the early part of his cycles. Any chance he's lick a drop of honey from your fingers?

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

I just gave him 4 treats dipped in karo. So far he has had about 10 treats.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

What does MC stand for?

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

MC is medium carb food, in the range of 10-15% carbs. High carb food is over 15%. Good examples are the Fancy Feast gravy lovers. They have a high portion of gravy and that's the bit that is loaded with carbs. I'm currently using Merck Cowboy Cookout (18%) but it contains beef and it's an allergen for some cats.

Have you got the next test yet?

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Hes at 88 40 mins later. I also got him to eat a few bites of low carb food 10 mins ago. (that's all I have at the moment)

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Poor guy. His ears are inflamed, red and sore. He didn't seem to mind the pricks at first but now after a few dozen tests (many test had to poke 2-3 times to get blood)

I've been using a rice sock to heat his ears and put neo + pain relief on afterwards but I know they have to be hurting because hes starting to resist. I've been using the lancet pen which sometimes doesn't seem to be as effective as doing it freehand. When freehanding I must be too shaky or not doing it fast enough because he jumps and gives me a nasty look when I try this although it usually produces better blood because I'm able to get closer to the edge of his ear without hitting the main vein. Any suggestions? I know this whole pricking thing is getting old to him.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Do you guys think that I'm headed for another bounce?

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Whew! Nice to see him slow down. The high carb goodness can still wear off him. I'd get another test in 45-60 minutes. I'll check back in then. You can probably lay off the treats for now. In case he goes lower later, it'd be nice for him to be a bit hungry.

What gauge lancet are you using? If you use the bigger ones at first 27-28, it's easier to get that drop of blood on the first prick. Over time you can move to the smaller ones. You can try putting a little Neo on before the prick, and wiping off the excess before you poke.

A favor to ask, could you update your first post with the latest numbers. So it would look like 11/18 Webster AMPS 331 +2 197 +3 97 +3.5 88, or whatever the correct numbers are. Those of us watching the board will scan the headings to see who might need help and it easiest if you update that first post. Thanks.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

One other thing, are you compressing the poke site for about 20-30 seconds afterwards? That helps prevent bruising.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

30 guage. I will pick up some smaller gauge lancets while I'm out getting some HC and MC food for situations such as this one. Will update post and get another reading. Thank you!!

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Paws crossed he starts surfing and lets you get out soon. Those greens are lovely and healing. :mrgreen:

One last thing, once you've got someone helping and things have calmed down, it's OK to remove the 911. See you in a bit.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Not compressing the poke site. So do you just squeeze his hear after you get the sample for 20-30 seconds

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Do you mean update this post or the one from last night? I just updated the one from last night. Did I do this correctly?

Should I start a new one for today (11/18) and update as the day goes on?

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

You go back to the start of this thread, and edit the first post you did today. The same place you took off the 911 (thanks for that!). Since we have so many kitties here, we ask that you do just one post a day.

In the current day's post, you can create a link to the previous post. Here is Webster's from yesterday: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=128570. That allows us to go back and see what happened previously.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Fast drops often cause bounces, just a part of FD. Yes, just take a pad and compress the test spot for about 20 seconds. Once the ears start to bleed easily the finer lancets are great (ears actually do "learn" to bleed), but larger ones may work better at first. The downside is that the larger the lancet the more irritation to the ear.

Get another test in, you may be seeing the effects of the karo, but it can wear off as quickly as it takes effect.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

Hi. Look for the lancets that say for alternative sites. They are higher gauge. Mine are 26 g. I've always done the piercing free hand. An alternative to lancet that I think I might be the only one using is needles. My vet taught me to do it that way and he prefers them. I bought some 25g terumo needles from calvetsupply.com. They are very sharp and I only needed one stick from the very beginning. They won't be around much longer but you might consider a box, My vet sold me monoject 22g.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

I think that I changed it correctly? Please let me know if we are on the same page. Sorry, mind is all over the place following the drop that I just saw.

 

Re: Webster dropping fast

I'll see if I can find some 26g locally.

I still feel shaky doing it by hand and always make him flinch so I would like to use the lancet pen if possible. From what I have read, you want to get close to the main vein running along the ear but try not to hit it? I really need a better technique. Where exactly are you poking? I've been trying to poke in the upper portion of the ear.

BTW, Webster ate a tablespoon of low carb food and is at 111. Seems to be okay

 

That looks good. Since you are doing a lot of testing you can remove some of the earlier tests if you run out of room, although you can actually put in more that it looks like in the box. It will keep scrolling over until you are out of room and the whole thing will show up on the board list

 

Okay, got it. Thank you!

 

Here's a post Marje did on Testing and Shooting tips that night help.

Nice to see Webster coming up slowly. I'd test again in an hour, and if he's still rising a bit, you can probably hold off testing the rest of the cycle. You both probably need a break. Great job today Mike!

 

Wendy, you beat me to it. I was just going to direct him there!

 

Belated welcome to the Vampire Club- great job handling those drops in BG, it's scary until you get used to it!

In addition to offering treats at every test(my kitty loves Pure Bites Chicken Freeze Dried treats), and using a 28 gauge lancet, you may know this already, but I am going to say it just to be sure - Are you using a new lancet every test? I didn't understand this when I was new here, but every time you poke the ear, the lancet degrades and as the tip becomes blunted, it causes more irritation and pain to kitties ear. I hope you can find the larger gauge lancets locally, I had to find them online. As Webster's ear grows more capillaries, it will get easier every time.

 

I found the larger gauge ones at Ralph's/Kroger market pharmacy when the ad had them for 99 cents. I was surprised to find them there.

 

Thank you for the treat recommendation. Picking up a good low carb treat is next on my list. I've been to 3 different Walmart's over the past week and had no luck finding any low carb treats. I guess I will go to Petsmart or somewhere else and look there. I really enjoy the convenience of one stop shopping but it doesn't always work out such as in this case.

I just went shopping and picked up some higher carb gravy food for situations such as the one today. I also picked up 26g lancets. I hope they are not too large? I've been using a new lancet every time however, I've used one 2-3 while testing before because I wasn't getting any blood and was out of patients. I really need to get in the habit of using it once. I'm sure that's part of the irritation problem.

On a side note, I also picked up a 4olb sack of diatomaceous earth to dust my carpet with. You may have seen my other post concerning a visit from some unwanted pests. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=128575

 

Numbers went up to 131. Thanks for the link. Reading now. :smile:

 

Hi Mike,
I use the lancet device and have always found that it is quicker than my hand and therefore less painful for the cat. Rusty, my cat, does not like the rice sock: he finds it too rough. I use a fine, soft baby washcloth and dampen it in warm water. Then I put it into a plastic baggie and microwave it for 10 seconds. I always test it on my own ear to make sure it is not too hot (microwaves vary; you may have to give it more than 10 seconds). This "ear band" is nice and smooth on sore ears. Are you putting a little vaseline on the ear before you do the prick? This helps the blood to bead up. I put a small gauze pad under the ear, aim the lancet device so that the hole is close to the edge of the ear, and push the button. Right after getting the blood on the test strip, I wrap the gauze pad around the spot on the ear and apply pressure on both sides of the ear. This pressure helps to prevent bruising. A little Neosporin Creme with Pain Relief applied immediately will take away some of the pain. If you use the Creme during the day, it will be less goopy than using the Ointment and will absorb better. I use the Ointment at night, after the last test.
Here's a good tip I learned a long time ago: If you put a little pressure immediately below where you intend to do the prick, you create a "dam" and there will be more blood above the dam. Blood in the ear capilaries flows from the tip of the ear down.

Good luck. 26- gauge lancets may be too thick for comfort! If you have to use a thicker lancet, try the 28 gauge.

Ella & Rusty

 

I've used DE too, the only concern is inhalation. After spreading, work it well into the rug and then vacuum thoroughly. the only place I leave any is under cushions or well under furniture where Tess can't get into it.

 

Thanks for sharing. One problem that I am having is seeing where I put the lancet pen. He has fine thick back hair around the edge of his ear which makes it difficult to determine whether I'm hitting skin or simply hitting his fur which hangs over just outside of the edge of the ear. To make matters worse, it's difficult to determine exactly where the pen is going to strike. I think I miss the edge of the ear sometimes because I'm afraid of getting close to his main vain.

If I can get this technique down I will not feel so bad about butchering Websters ears multiple times per day. Should I try to shave the edge of his ears to get a better view?

 

That's why I always freehand. Have you tried a flashlight under the ear? If you have a Harbor Freight near you this one looks like it would be great. I think it was even available as a free coupon in the Sunday paper recently.

 

I know the exact light that you are taking about! :smile:

How do you deliver the poke freehand? I Just read over the link that Wendy posted and learned that the lancets are beveled and there is a right and wrong way to position it. However, do you get the lancet real close and then barely touch the surface or do you jab it real quick? There's something about jabbing my kitty with a sphere and making him bleed that makes be feel nervous while doing it.

Can I try shaving his ear on the tip? Is in not a good ideal to try from the inside of the ear?

 

most people poke on the outside of the ear, but you can try the inside if you want. I always used the lancet device. In the directions it says that if you're having trouble getting a bead of blood to hold the lancet device in place against the ear for about 5-10 seconds before you poke, then continue to hold it in place for another 5ish seconds. That made a huge difference to me. They also suggest using the clear cap so you can see the blood welling up.

after you poke always put pressure on the spot to staunch the bleeding. That will eliminate the bruising and make a huge difference. just press your finger and thumb together with his ear in between and hold it for at least 10 seconds.

for pokey treats, many people buy freeze dried meats. I always boiled chicken breasts, diced them small (like 1/2") then froze most of it while keeping a couple of tablespoons out in the fridge. That was perfect. You want pokey treats to be small - it doesn't take much to train a cat to accept the poking if you always give a little bite of something yummy afterwards.

GREAT cycle today!

I'm thinking some of the fast drop may have to do with the meds. What time are you giving them?

I also would suggest that as long as he's eating adequate canned food that you reduce the dry food as quickly as possible. You asked how much his blood sugar might drop with the meds gone - i don't think we can know that, or how much they may decrease with the dry food going away. Cat vary in how sensitive they are to carbs. We have had people do little experiments and found that for their cats, even 3 pieces of dry food will send a cat's blood sugar up by several hundred points and they might stay there for another day. Dry food is powerful stuff! :lol:

It's occurred to me that you said you and your wife both work from home. If it works for your schedule, moving his shot time earlier in the day might be really helpful. I shot punkin at 7am/pm and that allowed me to get a +4.5 every evening that i thought i needed to before i went to bed at 11:30pm. If he had low numbers, I was still likely in bed by 1am. You might want to consider that.

If you do want to change his shot time, you can move it earlier by 30 minutes once per day or 15 minutes at every cycle without much worry about it affecting his blood sugar. If you want to move more than that, we have to look at his blood sugar and see if it's going to work in that particular cycle or not. Just an option for you if you want it.

 

Lots of great info. I'll try to keep pressure on his ear but sometimes he is restless and won't stay still.

"Pokey treats" What a funny name. I'm on a mission to pick some store bought treats up tomorrow. I may even try to make my own like you did once things settle down around here.

We have been aiming at changing his insulin time. A changing to a slightly earlier time may work better for us.

His AB syrup is given immediately after his insulin shots - twice per day. This sort of has me concerned because I don't know what the insulin is going to do without that burst of sugar that he has been receiving with his shot. With the limited data that I currently have, his BG has been known to take a nose dive within the first 2 hours of receiving his insulin.

 

it will be ok with the meds gone. oddly enough, the way Lantus works is better at lower numbers. If he starts at a lower number at preshot, he won't plummet as far. It's really counterintuitive, but one of the sayings here is "shoot low to stay low." That means that when you shoot your regular dose into normal numbers (50-120) the blood sugar will often just stay in a line rather than dropping fast. So a person shooting a 70 might have a 70 still in 4 hours.

In many ways, shooting a higher number "feels" safer to most people, but the truth is there is farther to fall from a high number. As long as you're around to monitor, you'll be able to catch him, but when you shoot a lower number you'll see that he won't drop in free fall like he's been doing.

I saved this post that I wrote to Darin/Charlie about Shooting Low. It might help explain some of that more fully.

Here's the thing - Webster is still eating dry food (high carb) and getting syrupy sugary meds (high carb) and you're giving him Temptations treats (high carb) and he's on a very small dose of insulin and he STILL got into green numbers today.

When he's done with the meds and the dry food is gone, you'll be able to adjust his insulin to fit his needs.

 

I had no idea that people poke outside the ear! I've never tried it. Mikey is a longhaired cat, and I poke inside the ear with no trouble at all. I don't think I'd be able to get the blood past all that fur to test, if I poked on the outside.

 

punkin had very long orange hair, but i didn't have any trouble with it. I slicked on a little bit of vaseline at the beginning to keep the blood from soaking into the hair or skin. Later when I started using neosporin ointment with pain relief, i slathered it on at night, wiped it off in the morning and left just a little greasiness behind. That was enough to substitute for the vaseline and it also worked to keep it numb, i think.

In that "testing and shooting tips" i posted a photo of a get-up I used at the beginning: an empty spice jar with a flashlight taped into it. I held the jar on the inside of punkin's ear and it completely illuminated all the capillaries and vein so I could see where i was poking. I didn't need that help for very long, but while i used it it really did help.

Also, know that as you poke it is stimulating the capillaries to grow. Everyone has trouble getting blood in the beginning, but the poking results in more capillaries within about 2 weeks. After then you'll get blood every time. In the meantime you can whack and whack with the lancet and it may be you're doing everything right, but you still won't get blood. Just be patient and it will come.

 

I've never heard of a specific direction to aim a lancet, other than not straight in, about a 45º angle. I do just barely touch the ear and then twist slightly. Since the tip of the lancet is facet, the very slight twist actually opens the slit it makes and allows blood to flow more easily. Also because it is a slit putting pressure on helps to press the slit back together. We test Tess at least 8 times a day and you would never know it to look at her ears.

Pokey treats are a must! Look in the dog treat section. Bigger packages are a lot cheaper and are the same product. You just need to break them up.

 

Thanks for the explanation and link. I'll read over the link tonight.

I really hope to see some lower numbers once he gets completely off his dry food and finishes the AB in another day or so.

 

Nice get-up. So did you sandwich his ear between the bottom of the jar and the lancet device?

 

Is there a specific brand that you buy and where do you buy yours?

 

Exactly. We put the bottle under his ear and lanced from the top side. It helps to have a hard surface under the ear so it doesnt just bend away when you poke.

 

I stopped by Petsmart this afternoon and went with you recommendation. I looked at the cat section and found freeze dried chicken for like $4 for an ounce or less. I purchased a much much larger bag in the dog section for $8 or so. I must admit, I was doubting that he would go for these treats but when I got home I broke up one treat into several pieces and gave one to him. Much to my surprise (they didn't look so tasty to me) he inhaled it was looking for another one once finished. Thank you!! Goodbye high carb Temptations, hello freeze dried chicken!

 

I'm going to make one of these tomorrow.

I can see his ears are inflamed and red from stupid me poking all over the middle to upper part of the ear, often with a lancet that I tried several times with. I put the clear cap on the lancet device and luckily struck gold the first time this evening.

Unfortunately, his ears are inflamed and now when he sees the meter coming he runs and hides. I hope that I haven't associated pain with the lancet and meters but I'm sure that I have. Hopefully I can work on my aim while using your flashlight technique and convince him to cooperate with my new freeze dried chicken treats. (Thanks Ann!)

 

If there is a time when you're trying to coax him to eat, you can crumble the freeze dried meat on top of canned food.

 

Great idea. I'll have to keep that in mind!

 

I usually get BD lancets, they seem to be sharper and hurt less. I usually can get a good deal on eBay, about $3 to $5 a box.

 

I'll have to give them a try. Thank you.

 

Hi. I don't see any new numbers for Webster. How is it going this morning?? Are you going to start a new condo for today?

 

Thanks for asking Tiff. I actually just posted a thread concerning his testing today. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=128682

He just received his insulin 1 hour ago and was at 450. Spreadsheet should be updated now. Thanks.