Panic June 2nd PMPS 318

Status
Not open for further replies.
oh joy, oh darn -- +3 = 134

that's the lowest it's been, this time of night .. and he usually doesn't hit nadir for an hour or more

if this were daytime I'd be really excited, I may be close on the dose now ...
but it's night, and I do NOT want to be fumbling around in the dark, testing
will ask hubby if he wants to watch another video tonight, or if he can sleep while I read with light on and get up again in an hour or two

almost looks like Panic is one of the few on vetsulin who DOES get a "double bounce" with the insulin troughing the BG midcycle and again near the end
(apparently this is fairly common in dogs)

or it's just Murphy messing with us

give me til tomorrow to put together my little scheme, I think I typed it out for someone else and posted it on another thread, but you'd have to search back through my postings and I've been sort of Chatty Cathy lately, not that I'm not always sorta that way
 
(sigh) it's a tossup, I tested a few minutes late, then decided to give him some additional food, so he got 1/3 can of FF, 1/4 can of Blue Wilderness, two sardines and a heaping pinch of bonito flakes -- so I think I better prop my eyes open and test at +4 to see if the food will slide him through nadir without going too low

lowest he's gone for me is upper middle greens -- but he did throw a 52 at +4 on the vet's AlphaTrak (curve, food only at inception) when on 2u dose, which is why we dropped him back pronto

I'm expecting a bounce into pinks in the morning ..
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
hmm...I got it, really. But the drop is sizable. It would be better to check again.
Click to expand...
yeah, staying up, with luck for another 20 minutes or so, til what's really +4.5

usually the first drop, 100 points or so, happens between +2 and +3 == then there's an additional drop about 50 points to nadir, at least that's what happens in the daytime

which means maybe something like 80 ... we'll see, I gotta go retrieve more food, he won't accept testing if he doesn't have something to eat first
 
+4.5 = 270 (15)

all that food cushioned the drop

Catcat is chowing down on his favorite bonito flakes now -- plus the 3 tablespoons or so of BW salmon he ate while I knelt and tested him

going to get to bed now, drama is over on this end
 
Last edited:
Good mid-morning! Panic appears well this morning, my alarm didn't go off so I slept in a tad late but luckily didn't miss her shot. Her appetite has improved, though I left a snack out in her feeder for 2am and 5am, the 2am one wasn't touched it seems but that's okay. Her AMPS was 479, I wish I knew why she always runs so high for PS numbers. :/

CandyH and Catcat said:
almost looks like Panic is one of the few on vetsulin who DOES get a "double bounce" with the insulin troughing the BG midcycle and again near the end
Click to expand...

Oh man I totally thought I read that Vetsulin can cause a double bounce but when I asked about it on the Vetsulin board someone said they didn't know what I was talking about - so I'm not crazy!

How is Catcat doing this morning?
 
 
Panic said:
Oh man I totally thought I read that Vetsulin can cause a double bounce but when I asked about it on the Vetsulin board someone said they didn't know what I was talking about - so I'm not crazy!
Click to expand...
double dips are well known among Lantus users but I never heard Vetsulin acts like that.
Maybe you were reading about Lantus - without realizing it?
There is so much info on this Board one can easily get lost in it and wander into other insulin types sections .
 
Sounds like Prozinc needs to be brought up again at the vet. I should start reading up on the best place to get it, my vet expressed she wasn't sure how to get her hands on it so maybe I'll do that this week for her.

I was pretty sure they were referring to Vetsulin where I read it, because I was trying to read up on how the insulin works. I couldn't say for sure though since I have no idea where that post was.
 
Panic said:
Sounds like Prozinc needs to be brought up again at the vet.
Click to expand...
It might be good idea.
Why did you switch from it?
I know people who switched from ProZ to Lantus but overall feedback on ProZ from its users is very positive.

Do you check the Supply Closet section?

I bought one of my Lantus pens overthere - used till the last drop and the deal was awesome ,too
 
We never used it, just talked about it, hence bringing it up again, sorry about the confusion!
I actually started discussing it with her right when we switched from NPH to Vetsulin. We had agreed to get her a better insulin and the vet suggested Vetsulin and after I went home and she had ordered it I read up on it and discovered Prozinc sounded better - but by then we had already gotten the Vetsulin and decided to try it out. She agreed Lantus or Prozinc (after doing more research, I think Panic may be her only feline diabetic right now) would be better but then we finally got some low numbers and she wanted to stick with Vetsulin for now.

I've skimmed the Supply Closet a few times but I think the Prozinc offers have been snagged. I will poke around the PZI forum and see where most people order from.
 
as we all figured, Catcat bounced -- AMPS = 349 (19.1) -- I agree, at least some of this is Vetsulin's short duration

he's lying there staring at me, reminding me that it's +2 and he wants another snack of that BW salmon waiting in the cabinet

I wonder if Panic might be a good candidate for Lantus -- partly from a financial standpoint -- seems like Lantus is somewhat more available; it's only my impression, but seems more on here wind up in remission with Lantus, thus it shows up in the Supply Closet ... also, human users on Lantus seem to be switching to Toujeo and selling their unused Lantus on Craigslist -- several here in the area right now doing that (some order a pack of pens then never use more than one)

plus the possibility of using that coupon offered by Lantus' manufacturer (Sanofi) --

also, looking at the mechanism that Lantus uses -- a gradual release of insulin from a deposit under the skin -- leads me to believe that it would smooth out the bouncing after the initial 3 days or so as cat's body acclimates ..

my vet suggests dental procedure for Catcat before switching, since that surely is affecting his BG as well
 
Last edited:
Oh, shoot. Those bounces are so pesky! Are you considering switching him to something different or keeping him on Vetsulin?

I'm not against the idea of Lantus, if ordered from Canada it's what, $130 USD? While Prozinc is like $110 on chewy.com. I would have to check the wiggle room for Lantus though. Saturdays I have to be out the door by 8:30 AM but during the week I don't get home from work until just after 9:00 PM (feed - wait - shoot @ 9:30 PM). If Lantus really is strict on hours it'd be out of the question because of me having to crank shooting times back on Fridays to hit early Saturday, then back down for the rest of the week. Oh how I wish I could find remote work!
 
CandyH and Catcat said:
I wonder if Panic might be a good candidate for Lantus
Click to expand...
She certainly would.
Lantus is outrageously expensive!
It bites my wallet every time even though I order from Canada for 1/2 the US price.

And to get the most effectiveness from such an $$$ tool the caregiver must be very strict with the use - timing 12x12 as close as you can (deviation of 1 h in any direction affects the following doses (plural) and does not reflect the real dose effect, consistent dosing, more frequent testing and being able to stay long hours up at night to test if the numbers are finally getting where they need to be - safe low numbers. BC Lantus has long duration and is capable of producing long strings of good low numbers the stay up time can be long, at least at the beginning. It does not fit into every schedule or a health condition. The caregiver has to be good Lantus candidate, too.
 
Panic said:
(feed - wait - shoot @ 9:30 PM)
Click to expand...
Did you give the shot this morning at 9:30AM?
But last night it was at 10PM or 10:30PM?
If so then you did shoot at +11 and it needs to be in the SS so we all know when (approximately) to look for onset.
Just like you did yesterday - the same AMPS cell 479 @+11 and manually fill the background.
:) I see you updated the Sig with the current weight :):cool: Thank you. (Did I tell you that it took me months (yes, plural) to stop getting lost here and screwing the SS entries?lol)
 
Hm so perhaps Lantus wouldn't be ideal with my schedule with having to wobble back and then forward an hour every week you think?

I did not get to shoot her at 9:30 AM this morning, last night I shot at *checks chart on fridge* 10:21 PM, today since I got up late on accident I was only able to crank it back to 10:10. So I guess no need to change on my SS this time but tonight when I adjust I should put PMPS cell @ +11 or whatever?

Yes, I did! I think I had her weight on my SS a while back but took it off because I didn't see anyone else posting their cat's xD
These SS's are tricky though! xD I almost wish there was a section to put time of injections but I guess that would whack the whole thing up.
 
Panic said:
Oh, shoot. Those bounces are so pesky! Are you considering switching him to something different or keeping him on Vetsulin?
Click to expand...
I'm hoping to switch to Lantus, have access to a supply of it, but coordinating with vet and she suggests we do his dental procedure (at least cleaning, and he may need extractions) before switching, since that is likely to affect his BG and it would save time and effort to let him recover from that before trying out a new insulin procedure

granted, he's bouncing on vetsulin, but not as dramatically as some, and chances are it's because vetsulin isn't staying the course, petering out two or three hours before next injection -- his frequent mini meals are "using up" the insulin, but without those, he'd probably spike higher and lower, and lose weight, not what I want since he's not yet back to optimum weight -- he's big boned and sturdy, muscular not fat

I'm retired and home most all day, have cancelled most of the activities I would otherwise engage in, pretty much going only to food banks, gathering supplies for Catcat and for family, rest of family does some of it too
 
Panic said:
perhaps Lantus wouldn't be ideal with my schedule with having to wobble back and then forward an hour every week you think?
Click to expand...
Vetsulin is certainly affords you greater flexibility than Lantus ever would.
ProZ too is somewhat demanding but it won't mess up several future cycles (as Lantus would) should be a late an hour or more.

Another thing is that you definitely will need to be up late to test, some days for very long hours which is good for cat's healing but (potentially) could make the caregiver sick. Anyone with busy schedules should think carefully about commitments required by Lantus to work most effectively. I see no point paying a lot and then getting unsatisfactory /mediocre results.

Panic said:
So I guess no need to change on my SS this time but tonight when I adjust I should put PMPS cell @ +11 or whatever?
Click to expand...
no change needed then:)
Panic said:
I almost wish there was a section to put time of injections
Click to expand...
just type in the Remark section: like AMPS @10:21Pm; PMPS @whatever hours. It won't clog the view n the SS.


What is Panic schedule for tests and foods is like?
If you can take a test +3 but make a note somewhere what and when you fed so we take a look at the number in combination with food effect.
Check out Ducia's SS - sometimes I put what she ate in the same cell as the BG - teaches me her food spikes on different foods at different times of a cycle (responses to the same foods vary)..
 
Well that's good to know before I got too committed to the idea. As long as I'm having to come home late during the week but leave extra early on Saturdays, I probably wouldn't get the full benefit of Lantus. :/ I really, really, want to find work remotely and maybe the day will come when I can, and then I could consider it. Prozinc may be more beneficial right now.

Panic is doing very well this evening! Gobbled up her food and wanted more! I really do wonder if she just ate something that didn't agree with her, because my dog (the one that I caught eating some of her vomit) didn't seem like she had much of an appetite afterwards either.
I wasn't able to get a PMPS test in though, I tried five or six times but I CANNOT get her left ear to bleed. Yesterday I did her right ear all day and I wanted to give it a break, but this left ear just won't give.

Tanya and Ducia said:
What is Panic schedule for tests and foods is like?
Click to expand...

Ooh I see what you did there with Ducia's SS! I can totally start doing that to help.
I would say her schedule goes something like this:

9:00AM - 1 can FF
9:30AM - small spoonful FF to munch on during shot
11:00AM - 1/3 can FF
and then it kinda varies, I might wait until 1 and give her 1/4 can FF, then another 1/4 a couple hours later. I usually leave for work around 3:00PM so I'll give her a bite before I leave, sometimes I ask whoever's home to give her something later too. Then at night I do the same thing, 1 can FF, 1/3 can at +1.5 and until just a few days ago I'd give her another bite maybe around midnight and call it quits until 9 the next day, but now that I have an auto feeder I usually set it to give her 1/4 can at 2:00AM and 5:00AM.

I do PureBites LC sporadically throughout the day, I usually treat her after testing with them, and every couple days or so I give her a raw egg.
 
since you asked, my feeding schedule is a little more complicated since I'm home most all day
criteria I'm using:

feed only the first half of the cycle daytimes, since he hits nadir before +6, no sense to feed later and increase BG then, my opinion
(ECID, you may have different timing as to when he hits nadir)

PreShot - feed a heaping tablespoon mushed up with water, so he eats as I do his test (impossible otherwise) -- 6:30 AM
immediately follow that with treat -- dry sardine, bonito flakes, occasional Meow Mix TF (seafood ones, low carb)

main meal (and shot) follows half an hour later, with turmeric, olive oil, and pepper added (anti-inflammatory) 7 AM

+1 and +2 -- heaping tablespoon of food, cannot let him free feed (gobbles) but needs to eat small, frequent

+3 and +4 -- choose which one to test, based on the AMPS value .. feed at test, then treat; enough to carry him through nadir
(non test, gets tablespoon-full)

+5 and +6 -- tablespoon each, then no more until PMPS -- may do another test if the +3/4 test makes me want info

evenings pretty much the same for preshot, main meal, and +1 and +2; test/treat and feed a bit more at +3 to carry him through nadir and night

human with prediabetes and unmedicated type 2 do best with frequent small meals, so I'm doing my best to offer that to Catcat,
modified since he's getting an insulin which hits hard and fast, and doesn't last through the cycle
 
Last edited:
It's funny the only way you can test is with food - Panic will fold her ear flat to her head if I try to test while she's eating xD
Do you give Catcat tumeric and such just for health or does he have inflammation?

Thank you for posting your feeding schedule! <3 So if I'm understanding right, once he hits his typical nadir you stop food until the next cycle? Do you feed AT nadir? When should I be testing to find Panic's nadir? I know I've been struggling to find anything due to bouncing but try I will.
 
oh Catcat folds his ear -- but I hang on til I get the prick, then let go until I see the droplet forming, grab ear again, scoop off the droplet, load the meter, test off the scoop, go back and fold tissue and hold around Catcat's ear (usually while singing long enough for blood to stop or clot), record the meter reading, ditch the tissue, recap the lancet and throw in sharps container, by then he's finished the soupy food so I dump the treat in bowl

try a prick without food --- growl hiss spit fight claw bite ... and run ...

Catcat has "cat acne" on his chin, difficult to treat as he objects strenuously to being touched there, it acts like an abscess, oozes, and if I daub it with benzoyl peroxide or smear with Neosporin, I will definitely get clawed, may get bitten, and he then scrubs at it with paws and back feet, rubs against anything he can find, and washes bib which rubs the liquid/ointment off on his chest which he then licks

vet preferred not to treat it, her opinion was it would clear up by itself -- so I'm doing the semi-herbal route and hoping that anti-inflammatory will allow his immune system to heal it from the inside out
 
That sounds tricky! As long as it works though! I don't feel like I have enough hands to load the meter after getting blood, so I just hope I get it before it times out. With Panic I have to sit down and fold my legs up in front of me and prop her in my lap with her front legs up on my knees. ECID, and every method XD

Oh no, how did he get acne? I just knew it was caused from plastic bowls but his sounds a bit more extreme.
 
Catcat on the bathroom floor (indoor outdoor carpet), me kneeling behind him, meter on top of a cosmetic case just to his left with the test strip lying on top of it, scoop spoon in my teeth, tissue in left hand, lancet in my right -- cat eats, I hold tissue and ear, prick with the other hand, then let go, put lancet up on sink surround, transfer scoop spoon to right hand, regrasp ear with left, scoop droplet off and let go -- transfer scoop to left hand, grasp test strip with right and insert into meter sitting there, pick up meter+strip with right hand and gently nudge strip to droplet on scoop spoon == "sip" (slurp) -- wait for meter to record

quite a juggling act but usually winds up successful

had to do it that way since if I loaded strip into meter first, and the prick didn't give big enough drop, or cat flicked or jerked, it would time out and I'd have to use another strip, at 45 cents per strip, I can't really afford to waste them -- bad enough that I get an E-7 (not enough blood) error on the meter every five or six tries -- usually there actually is enough blood, but it smeared or ran rather than beading up

cat acne, they don't really know why it shows up (my guess is stress to start it, irritation, scratching, rubbing, licking to keep it going)-- as in humans, too much body oil gets jammed up in pores, not cleaned off (cat can't reasonably lick the underside of chin), oxidizes and hardens, cat scratches it, sometimes intending to scratch ears?, can get infected that way or just swell up and ooze --- remember that zit from your teen years? if you don't you were fortunate -- many women wind up with same thing happening again when they get to that certain age ... (she says, scratching a bump on her chin)

oh, he's never used plastic bowls, I feed him in ceramic ones, dog uses stainless steel
 
That is quite a juggling act! I'm glad it works at least. :) I'm pretty sure you can just start over with the test strip when it times out as long as there's no blood on it? At least for the meters I use, I don't have a Confirm, but I was throwing away my timed-out Prime test strips until I learned otherwise.

Yes I assumed already you weren't using plastic bowls, that's why I was surprised he had it! And oh I know it! Realized yesterday I had one on my cheek for once - must have been from the stress of the day before yesterday! I hope he clears up soon, that sounds really uncomfortable. :/

You are not going to believe this but Panic just tested 257 for AMPS this morning! I think I want to try your method and give her a bit every hour for the first half of the cycle, especially since that's unusually low for her for PS numbers. Think I'll test +3 and record what she ate today like Tanya suggested.
 
Panic said:
Panic just tested 257 for AMPS
Click to expand...
:)
What a lovely lovely number!!!
Is it still AlphaTrack? If yes then the number is even better on Relion.
totally happy for you!

@ Panic,
would you please make a new thread - this one is way too long and the dates it totally off?
 
It is indeed still Alphatrak!

Yes of course - do I just make the new thread title the current date and AMPS number?
 
Panic said:
do I just make the new thread title the current date and AMPS number?
Click to expand...
yep, just like that - date, name and apms - sums up all.
No need to type anything in the text body (unless you have ? or a concern)
but include this URL:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/panic-june-2nd-pmps-318.215193/page-2

(it the link to this June2 post)

type "Last Post", highlight the words, then click on the Link Icon in the tool bar of the post windows and insert that copied URL.
This will link 2 posts together for continuity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top