Applaws for Diabetic Cat - New Member

[Gann]

Hi All, am a new member to this wonderful community. And I desperately need help! My british short hair tabby Raisin was diagnosed with Diabetes last September. He went into remmission by Dec/Jan. Was there for 2 months and his diabetes came back with anger and have been struggling to contain it since.

Will come out with more detail in terms of insulin given, doses, timings etc but my immediate concern is with his food. Though Applaws is stated as supplemental food but Applaws Tuna for example has GA of Crude Protein (min) 14%, Crude Fat (min) 0.01%, Crude Fibre (max) 2%, Moisture (max) 86%. There doesnt seem to be any carbohydrate (calculated) at all. Isnt this what is best for a Diabetic Cat (though bit pricey)?

I have been through Dr. Lisa's food chart and I am struggling to convert the above values into her table (bit thick in the head!). The above stated values is in a tin contaning 70 gms. Total calories in a tin is around 50kcal. As the values in the spreadsheet is for 5.5Oz ( ~156 grams), should I do 14% * 3 and say Applaws tuna has 42% protein?

I had to move back to India after being in UK for nearly 25 years and brought Raisin with me. I am struggling to get good cat wet food, high in protein and low in carbs and Applaws tin has the highest percentage of Protein shown as compared to other brands that I get here. Would greatly appreciate if anybody can help me with the above calculations (teach me fishing) or suggest good diabetic friendly food that I can get here in India (give me fish!). Raisin is ravenously hungry in his second diabetic incarnation (he was extremely thirsty in the first). His sugar levels are always between 300 and 400, topping 500 at times. He is on 6U of Lantus, twice a day (which I have reduced to 5U after reading some of the articles here) and the Vet has said that next step would be to include human mixtard along with Lantus. Dont know whether this is warranted. Vet here see more impoverished cats that diabetic ones and I dont know how much experience they could have gained in treating diabetic ones.

Eagerly anticipating advise and guidance. Thanks in advance.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Hi All, am a new member to this wonderful community. And I desperately need help! My british short hair tabby Raisin was diagnosed with Diabetes last September. He went into remmission by Dec/Jan. Was there for 2 months and his diabetes came back with anger and have been struggling to contain it since.

Will come out with more detail in terms of insulin given, doses, timings etc but my immediate concern is with his food. Though Applaws is stated as supplemental food but Applaws Tuna for example has GA of Crude Protein (min) 14%, Crude Fat (min) 0.01%, Crude Fibre (max) 2%, Moisture (max) 86%. There doesnt seem to be any carbohydrate (calculated) at all. Isnt this what is best for a Diabetic Cat (though bit pricey)?

I have been through Dr. Lisa's food chart and I am struggling to convert the above values into her table (bit thick in the head!). The above stated values is in a tin contaning 70 gms. Total calories in a tin is around 50kcal. As the values in the spreadsheet is for 5.5Oz ( ~156 grams), should I do 14% * 3 and say Applaws tuna has 42% protein?

I had to move back to India after being in UK for nearly 25 years and brought Raisin with me. I am struggling to get good cat wet food, high in protein and low in carbs and Applaws tin has the highest percentage of Protein shown as compared to other brands that I get here. Would greatly appreciate if anybody can help me with the above calculations (teach me fishing) or suggest good diabetic friendly food that I can get here in India (give me fish!). Raisin is ravenously hungry in his second diabetic incarnation (he was extremely thirsty in the first). His sugar levels are always between 300 and 400, topping 500 at times. He is on 6U of Lantus, twice a day (which I have reduced to 5U after reading some of the articles here) and the Vet has said that next step would be to include human mixtard along with Lantus. Dont know whether this is warranted. Vet here see more impoverished cats that diabetic ones and I dont know how much experience they could have gained in treating diabetic ones.

Eagerly anticipating advise and guidance. Thanks in advance.

@Bandit's Mom

 

[Bandit's Mom]

Hi @Gann

Welcome to FDMB!
Which part of India are you in? I'm in Mumbai!

Finding low carb cat food in India is definitely a challenge. There are no low carb dry foods - the lowest I could find was 16% carbs! These are your options in low carb wet food:

• Whiskas in Jelly
• Felix in Jelly
• Sheba in Jelly
• Farmina Matisse
• Farmina N&D
• Little Big Paw
• Clumsy Bumsy - not a 100% sure if they are low carb.
• Goofy Tails - not a 100% sure if they are low carb
• BARF

I'm not including the likes of Applaws which are not a complete food. Or some dicey brands like Me-O!

What food are you feeding Raisin now? Applaws Tuna?

Most food brands in India (and in the US) don't give you Typical Analysis (like in the UK) but only Guaranteed Analysis which are only min/max ranges and not exact values of Proteins, Fat, Fibre etc. You can use this carb calculator to get a rough estimate of carb% based on Guaranteed Analysis values on the cat food label. Look at Dry Matter Carbohydrates at the very end.
http://scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html

Do you home test his sugar? 6U is a pretty large dose for a cat on a low carb diet, that doesn't have secondary conditions like Acromegaly etc that can cause insulin resistance. Without enough tests to see how low a dose is taking him, too much insulin can actually look like too little insulin! What happens when the dose is too high is the cat's body fights to stay alive. The insulin may be trying to drive the blood glucose down too low and the pancreas will release stored hormones and sugars to bring it back up fast so too much insulin can actually look like it's not enough!

I found that most vets didn't have very much experience treating diabetic cats. I managed Bandit's diabetes entirely with the help of FDMB!

 

[Gann]

Many thanks @Bandit's Mom for the detailed reply. I am currently residing in Bangalore.

I have always fed Raisin only Applaws products (mainly all their fih products) since he came to us 6 weeks old. Raisin is now 16! I didnt know the difference between Complate and Supplementary food until recently but had gone for Applaws as they didnt have much additives. He was always on canned diet and kibble was only for grazing for which I had only used James Wellbeloved all these years.

I thought Jelly would have more carbs due to the thickeners and kept away from them. But now will start with Sheba. And add some Farmina Matisse. He never liked Whiskas or Felix even back in UK.

I still have dry food if he gets hungry at night. Tried Royal Canine Satiety which he didnt like much but now slowly turning him over to Farmina N&D.

I had lot of tests done last year when he was first diagnosed with Diabetes and Acromegaly was ruled out. Have been doing routine blood tests every 2 months and the last one done in early May showed his creatinine and TSH levels are normal. He is due for full set of tests including Fructosamine in a day or two, but want to arm myself with as much knowledge as possible from helpful people here.

We do home test. My wife does it actually as I still cant get myself to prick my boy! We did a BG curve on 6th Jul and plan to do another this week. Will post all that info once done but will get back with what I have before end of day.

Immediate problem as stated before is his hunger. He wants food every 2 hours. And I give it as I dont want him to end up with ketoacidosis.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

I still have dry food if he gets hungry at night. Tried Royal Canine Satiety which he didnt like much but now slowly turning him over to Farmina N&D.

Both these foods are actually too high in carbs for a diabetic cat. Will he not eat only wet food?

I had lot of tests done last year when he was first diagnosed with Diabetes and Acromegaly was ruled out. Have been doing routine blood tests every 2 months and the last one done in early May showed his creatinine and TSH levels are normal. He is due for full set of tests including Fructosamine in a day or two, but want to arm myself with as much knowledge as possible from helpful people here.

I'm going to tag @Wendy&Neko who is our go-to person for Acromegaly and high dose conditions. I don't know if these tests are available in India, though!

We do home test. My wife does it actually as I still cant get myself to prick my boy! We did a BG curve on 6th Jul and plan to do another this week. Will post all that info once done but will get back with what I have before end of day.

Unfortunately, weekly or fortnightly curves do not give you the full picture of how he is doing on a dose. If he has dropped low a particular day, he could "bounce" for up to 3 days after. If you were to do a curve on one of those days, you would see flat and high numbers and think that the dose is not high enough whereas, the dose is actually too high. Spot checks every day would give you more info than a curve one in a week or two. Many of us get preshot tests as well as at least 1 mid-cycle test to see how low a dose is taking our kitty.

Immediate problem as stated before is his hunger. He wants food every 2 hours. And I give it as I dont want him to end up with ketoacidosis.

Unregulated diabetic cats cannot process their food which is why they are always starving and lose weight despite eating so much. Without enough insulin, no matter how much food they eat (which breaks down into glucose which is what the cells need to survive), the cells starve. The glucose stays in the bloodstream - which is why the blood glucose is high.

Any chance he has worms?
Is he ravenous only on some days or always? I wonder if he is dropping low on some days and that's why he's so hungry?

Maybe Wendy and @Bron and Sheba (GA) can help with any other reasons why Raisin could be so hungry?

 

[Gann]

Both these foods are actually too high in carbs for a diabetic cat. Will he not eat only wet food?

I keep them out at night only in case he gets hungry. Maybe should leave a bit only for one night instead of having many days worth in it.

 

[Gann]

He is always hungry. I gave a spoton receommended by the vet 2 months back that includes both flea and worm treatments. But that brought on a hot spot as something in there was allergic to him. Second time he got hot spot after using the same spoton, but not sure whether correlation is causation in this case.

Will move to spotchecks from today. I saw a lot of readings on your SS which shows how acutely you had monitored your cats situation. And I was so sad to see the last line! She will be in peace now. Though inevitable for all beings, I am dreading that day!

Will get the spreadsheet up and running today.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Hi and welcome to the forum. @Bandit's Mom has given you a lot of great information about things available in India.
Re the hunger… the only thing I can suggest is to add some warm water to the food so it fills him up a bit and see if that helps.

How did you reach the 6 units? Did you go up in 1 unit increments?
I would definitely not recommend mixtard insulin.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

He is always hungry. I gave a spoton receommended by the vet 2 months back that includes both flea and worm treatments. But that brought on a hot spot as something in there was allergic to him. Second time he got hot spot after using the same spoton, but not sure whether correlation is causation in this case.

The spot-on will not help with one of the worms - I think ringworm. For that you need oral meds. The one I used was Feli-D. There might be other brands as well:
https://www.amazon.in/FeliD-Deworming-Tablets-Cats-Pack_of_4_AreFeli04/dp/B0BSVS9TDM/

Was he tested for hyperthyroidism?

I saw a lot of readings on your SS which shows how acutely you had monitored your cats situation.

She was a hard cat to regulate! Very bouncy and a high carb kibble addict! We tried our best

And I was so sad to see the last line! She will be in peace now.

Thank you

 

[Gann]

Hi and welcome to the forum. @Bandit's Mom has given you a lot of great information about things available in India.
Re the hunger… the only thing I can suggest is to add some warm water to the food so it fills him up a bit and see if that helps.

How did you reach the 6 units? Did you go up in 1 unit increments?
I would definitely not recommend mixtard insulin.

Thank you! Will try the warm water from today. Do I just add it directly to his wet food? Doesnt it make it slushy?

Went in 1U increments. It just didnt make sense to me that we kept on increasing insulin and there wasnt any improvement. And then the vet said about mixtard insulin which I didnt have a clue about. That is when I searched and came across this forum. Thank God I did! Am using Sanofi pen with replacable cartridge and a 6mm needle.

 

[Gann]

The spot-on will not help with one of the worms - I think ringworm. For that you need oral meds. The one I used was Feli-D. There might be other brands as well:
https://www.amazon.in/FeliD-Deworming-Tablets-Cats-Pack_of_4_AreFeli04/dp/B0BSVS9TDM/

Was he tested for hyperthyroidism?

Ordered the med u have suggested. He was tested for it. TSH levels were normal. But this was sometime ago. Need to get his full blood test done after arming myself with the knowledge from here with all your help so that I can give the Vet list of tests to be done.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

Apologies...a correction... not ringworm...tapeworm!

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

With the water just start by adding a teaspoon to each meal/snack. If he’s ok with that you can increase it slowly

 

[Gann]

With the water just start by adding a teaspoon to each meal/snack. If he’s ok with that you can increase it slowly

Thank you. Will do. As I will be moving to jelly from tomorrow, will be easier.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

and Acromegaly was ruled out

Do you know what information they used to rule it out? Note that there are cats with acromegaly on doses lower than 6 units, so it's just not a higher dose condition. However, a cat on a higher dose, that is on a low carb diet with no other medical issues, should be tested for these conditions.

Acromegaly and high dose conditions. I don't know if these tests are available in India, though!

Probably not available there. Possibly Japan? I know there is some research on acromegaly done there. If not, Royal Vet Clinic in London, England or Michigan State University in the US test for acromegaly for sure. There has been a recent change in how the testing is done, to move away from a radioimmunoassay to a chemiluminescent assay, meaning less special equipment is needed to do the testing. I have heard of one other clinic opening in Europe that now tests with the new method, so we could be seeing more places able to test. Your vet would have to ask around. An internal medicine vet might know if the vet has access to one.

Having said all that, Raisin (love that name!) has seen into the 50's on 6 units, and with a higher carb diet. Moving to a lower carb diet should reduce his insulin needs. So make sure you are comfy testing and doing it regularly before you switch foods.

and the Vet has said that next step would be to include human mixtard along with Lantus.

Your vet is talking about adding a short acting insulin on top of Lantus. If the lower carb food doesn't work to lower his dose, adding a short acting insulin is something some of our members with higher dose cats have done. But we suggest only doing so with the help of someone who has experience using it. There are many things to learn about when NOT to use a short acting insulin.

Above you also mentioned using the pen, @Bandit's Mom could help with using syringes instead. Typically we change dose in smaller amounts than you can do with a pen.

 

[Gann]

Many thanks Wendy. I went through his previous reports after I had written Acromegaly has been ruled out to confirm the same. They just did an ultrasound and said his adrenals were slightly inflamed but nothing more. So, it hasn't been actually ruled out. That said, I don't think I can test him for it in India.
Will be moving him to jelly foods that @BanditsMom has suggested from today. Will be testing at least three times a day and hence will have more data to provide in 3-4 days.
Don't want to get into human mixtard. I just lack the knowledge right now to deal with Lantus alone and don't want to add another complication to it.

 

[Gann]

Just recall that when he was first diagnosed with Diabetes, he was put on Biphasic Isophane, which I understand has a short acting peak and longer basal component. Continued with it for over 2 weeks and didnt notice any improvement. Changed Vet who changed to lantus.

 

[Gann]

Going in for Raisins blood test tomorrow. Will be getting full blood, renal, electrolytes and thyroid. Anything else specifically I should ask for given that Raisins sugar is not coming down inspite of being on 5U (or is high because he is on 5U!)? Will check whether she knows whether Acromgaly tests have come to India.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Make sure the vet takes a listen to his heart, that and kidney and thyroid issues can cause insulin resistance. So can pancreatitis, but it sounds like he's eating well, so that's not a concern. So can any infection or inflammation, get the get to take a look in his mouth to see if any inflammation around the gums that might indicate he needs a dental.

I rather suspect those "Hi" numbers are a bounce. Is it possible to start getting a test before every shot, the preshot test? That's essential to know it's safe to shoot. Plus any time you can get a mid cycle test, which is ideally middle of the cycle, but at least a +2 at one end or +10 at the other if that's all you can get. Even a "before bed test" can give us a clue if he's going low at night - which cats often do. Especially if you are starting to change his food to something lower carb. That can mean his insulin needs drop drastically.

I've helped one member the couple scary days/nights after she removed dry food from the house that she thought her cat couldn't reach. Apparently he could. He went from 5.5 units to 0 in those couple days. That's an extreme case, but is illustrative of the importance of testing more when food is being changed.

 

[Gann]

Thank u. Fully armed before going to the vet. His preshot this morning was 389, which is slightly encouraging. Will do a mid cycle, PMPS, a mid and then before bed.

 

[Shorshe’s Mum]

Hi Gann!

i am also in India but in Kolkata. I have recently started an online consultation with vets at Cessna. So far they have been very helpful. I am supposed to have a consultation with a vet from Cessna domlur today who specilizes in diabetes about Shorshe’s diet. Her name is Dr Suma.

incodentally are you getting james wellbeloved in India? If not, and if you have to give dry food, you can try getting Hill’s prescription diet m/d dry. At 15% carb it has less than farmina and it has no or v little starch. It has never caused a blood sugar spike for Shorshe. It is very expensive and sometimes customs really messes with it, but you can order this food from Vivapets. If you are getting food from UK, I saw someone had uploaded a low carb foods from UK chart here. And some varieties of lily’s kitchen smooth paté has low carb. Also among the ones from UK available here, big little paws tuna mousse has high calorie but very low carb (0%). You can order it online from HUFT if you don’t find it physically near you.

My cats are also Applaws tuna addicts. And I give it to them as a treat. But I am freaked out by the visible rice in the food (even though the carb caculation shows carb in negative amounts) and usually painstakingly fish the rice bits out (as much as possibke). Also, the applaws cans imported in India are made in Thailand and I believe that now the UK and US applaws formula has slightly changed with upto 6% rice (as oposed to 2%).

@Bandit's Mom I wrote to clumsy bumsy. They said aprt from the meat/fish ingridients and vitamin additives they only add psyllium husk. That shoukd be low carb?

I will also write to goofy tails. They say on the back of their pack it’s 4 or 5% carb. But when i try to use a carb calculator, it doesn’t match up to the other figures. Will keep you guys posted.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

@Bandit's Mom I wrote to clumsy bumsy. They said aprt from the meat/fish ingridients and vitamin additives they only add psyllium husk. That shoukd be low carb?

Yes, if that is the case it should be low carb.

I will also write to goofy tails. They say on the back of their pack it’s 4 or 5% carb. But when i try to use a carb calculator, it doesn’t match up to the other figures. Will keep you guys posted.

I too wrote to them but they didn't seem to understand the concept of carb % on an "As Fed Basis" (including moisture) and "Dry Matter Basis" (without moisture). And I didn't bother pursuing it since Bandit would not eat wet food anyway!

 

[Gann]

Hi Gann!

i am also in India but in Kolkata. I have recently started an online consultation with vets at Cessna. So far they have been very helpful. I am supposed to have a consultation with a vet from Cessna domlur today who specilizes in diabetes about Shorshe’s diet. Her name is Dr Suma.

incodentally are you getting james wellbeloved in India? If not, and if you have to give dry food, you can try getting Hill’s prescription diet m/d dry. At 15% carb it has less than farmina and it has no or v little starch. It has never caused a blood sugar spike for Shorshe. It is very expensive and sometimes customs really messes with it, but you can order this food from Vivapets. If you are getting food from UK, I saw someone had uploaded a low carb foods from UK chart here. And some varieties of lily’s kitchen smooth paté has low carb. Also among the ones from UK available here, big little paws tuna mousse has high calorie but very low carb (0%). You can order it online from HUFT if you don’t find it physically near you.

My cats are also Applaws tuna addicts. And I give it to them as a treat. But I am freaked out by the visible rice in the food (even though the carb caculation shows carb in negative amounts) and usually painstakingly fish the rice bits out (as much as possibke). Also, the applaws cans imported in India are made in Thailand and I believe that now the UK and US applaws formula has slightly changed with upto 6% rice (as oposed to 2%).

@Bandit's Mom I wrote to clumsy bumsy. They said aprt from the meat/fish ingridients and vitamin additives they only add psyllium husk. That shoukd be low carb?

I will also write to goofy tails. They say on the back of their pack it’s 4 or 5% carb. But when i try to use a carb calculator, it doesn’t match up to the other figures. Will keep you guys posted.

Hi Madhura,

Thanks for the info and sorry for late reply. Had a family issue last week and just back today.

Dont think they have JWB here in India. That said, I have completely removed his dry food and he is only on wet now. Will try the Big little paws one.

Have about 15 tins of Applaws remaining since Bandit's mom suggested that I move to Sheba/Whiskas Jelly. Yes, seeing the visible rice was quite unnerving.

 

[Gann]

I am supposed to have a consultation with a vet from Cessna domlur today

I had been to this branch last year. Got all diagnostics done when Raisin was initialy diagnosed. Then too he had the same problem that his BG wasnt coming down. Think I met somebody called Adarsh. How did it go with Dr. Suma?