Oregano 3/30. Pmps 183, +1 184, +2 139, +82

wade

wade

Member
Hello everyone, oregano earned a reduction from 2.5 to 2.25 earlier today when she dropped below 90.
So tonight’s pm dose I did the lower 2.25. She began crashing thirty min ago. Went from 139 to 89 in about ten minutes. Then 88, then 85, and just now 83.

she ate a number of high carb crunchies during this time but is full now and done eating. I gave her a little Karo syrup which she ate, then did it again and she ate that too. And still her numbers are dropping. Currently she is at 83 and won’t eat anything including the Karo. So I have been rubbing it on her gums. And still her numbers won’t rise. Any advice? Do I need to take her to the emergency vet?
 
wade said:
Hello everyone, oregano earned a reduction from 2.5 to 2.25 earlier today when she dropped below 90.
So tonight’s pm dose I did the lower 2.25. She began crashing thirty min ago. Went from 139 to 89 in about ten minutes. Then 88, then 85, and just now 83.

she ate a number of high carb crunchies during this time but is full now and done eating. I gave her a little Karo syrup which she ate, then did it again and she ate that too. And still her numbers are dropping. Currently she is at 83 and won’t eat anything including the Karo. So I have been rubbing it on her gums. And still her numbers won’t rise. Any advice? Do I need to take her to the emergency vet?
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@Bron and Sheba (GA)
@Wendy&Neko
@tiffmaxee
 
Bandit's Mom said:
83 is a safe number. How long after the shot is this? Please go easy on the HC treats and honey for now?
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The 83 came 2.5 hours after her pm shot (which was her first at 2.25 after earning her deduction from 2.5 earlier today.
 
Last edited:
wade said:
The 83 came 2.5 hours after her pm shot (which was her first at 2.25 after warning her deduction from 2.5 earlier today.
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I may have messed this up. I panicked at 83 because it’s so much lower than she usually is and it got there so fast. Definitely gave her too much Karo. She spiked to 215.

Is the right move for me to just ignore 83 and let her get down to being symptomatic before addressing it? I am not sure I could take watching her seize.

I am really unsure of myself here at these lower numbers. And I can’t figure why she earned yet another deduction today (so will go down to 2 units am and pm)
 
Bandit's Mom said:
83 is a safe number. How long after the shot is this? Please go easy on the HC treats and honey for now?
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what’s the right course of action for me if she’s in the 80’s. It’s definitely not giving her Karo syrup. Leaned that the hard way tonight. What would you do in that situation ?
 
I wonder if that dip was a wonky read from the Libre. It does tend to read lower that a conventional meter and we ask members to verify any lows with a ear poke, if possible.
Looks like she is comfortably up enough for you to call it a night. Has it been 2 hours since she had the HC treats/honey?
 
Bandit's Mom said:
I wonder if that dip was a wonky read from the Libre. It does tend to read lower that a conventional meter and we ask members to verify any lows with a ear poke, if possible.
Looks like she is comfortably up enough for you to call it a night. Has it been 2 hours since she had the HC treats/honey?
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sorry, fell asleep with oregano.

Had been over two hours since the Karo. reading was 159 at +6 (3:30 am Eastern) which was an hour ago.

currently at +7 it her BG is 359.
 
Staci & Ivy said:
Hi Wade and Oregano, we are sending you both good wishes for a much calmer day today. Sorry you had a tough night. Hope you can both get some rest today :bighug::cat::bighug:
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thank you. Rough night but she’s doing great now. I over reacted at 83 so this is really human error. Going to have to get better on that. Thanks again. Have a great day!
 
wade said:
thank you. Rough night but she’s doing great now. I over reacted at 83 so this is really human error. Going to have to get better on that. Thanks again. Have a great day!
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It’s a steep learning curve. You’re doing great. Please give yourself a lot of grace.
Wishing you and Oregano a safe surf and give her gentle pets :bighug::cat::bighug:
 
Hey Wade!

Sorry you had a rough night. I know those greens can be scary (especially when they come on suddenly) and I am absolutely not an experienced member here, but I just wanted to throw out some thoughts.

83 is really fine. If you're ever worried and are able to verify with a manual test (I'm not, unfortunately, but am definitely in the minority) you'll probably also find that the Libre runs lower at the low end and higher at the high end. It's likely that she wasn't even as "low" as 83, but again, that should be verified if you're concerned about it.

From what I understand, we don't tend to intervene with "bigger guns" like Karo until kitty goes under 50, which is really what's considered the threshold of "low." The How to Handle Low Numbers sticky would probably be really helpful for you! From my own experience (again, it is limited) and what I've read here, depending on the time in the cycle etc you could use smaller things earlier in the cycle to make the descent a little more gentle, but how exactly to do that isn't something I'm experienced enough with to give specific advice on.

You did a great job taking care of your girl! I understand the fear, but please don't worry. ECID and can show symptoms of hypoglycemia higher than others, but 83 itself is generally considered a very safe number.
 
wade said:
what’s the right course of action for me if she’s in the 80’s. It’s definitely not giving her Karo syrup. Leaned that the hard way tonight. What would you do in that situation ?
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Start with a tsp or two of her regular low carb food and see where she is 1/2 hour later. Food can take 20-30 minutes to go from the plate to her blood stream. Not sure how long it takes for the Libre to register food differences though. Often giving them some LC will help them surf or hang out in those numbers. Those are nice pancreas healing numbers. What you do next depends on a few things. One, is she stable or still dropping? If dropping by how much? How early in the cycle is it compared to nadir? If close to typical nadir, she might be done dropping.

Another thing you'll learn over time is how carb sensitive your girl is, and how much food and how many carbs she needs to get her to stop dropping or come up. When you give extra carbs, use the Remarks section to note when, how much, and what carbs or food you used. Over time you'll get an idea of what food you need to give based on the effect those carbs had on her numbers. Cats really vary in how much carbs they need, and if after nadir, when insulin effect is fading, you'll typically need less.

Lastly, to record multiple numbers an hour, you can put a string of numbers in the spreadsheet cell. Something like 83;88@4.5;90@4.75 will tell you where she was on the hour, then half hour later and 15 minutes after that. You'll have to manually colour the cell as the automated conversion won't handle it. But most important is recording the lowest number you see. The other numbers will help you if you are feeding food and want to see how it influenced her numbers.
 
Brianna & Xander said:
Hey Wade!

Sorry you had a rough night. I know those greens can be scary (especially when they come on suddenly) and I am absolutely not an experienced member here, but I just wanted to throw out some thoughts.

83 is really fine. If you're ever worried and are able to verify with a manual test (I'm not, unfortunately, but am definitely in the minority) you'll probably also find that the Libre runs lower at the low end and higher at the high end. It's likely that she wasn't even as "low" as 83, but again, that should be verified if you're concerned about it.

From what I understand, we don't tend to intervene with "bigger guns" like Karo until kitty goes under 50, which is really what's considered the threshold of "low." The How to Handle Low Numbers sticky would probably be really helpful for you! From my own experience (again, it is limited) and what I've read here, depending on the time in the cycle etc you could use smaller things earlier in the cycle to make the descent a little more gentle, but how exactly to do that isn't something I'm experienced enough with to give specific advice on.

You did a great job taking care of your girl! I understand the fear, but please don't worry. ECID and can show symptoms of hypoglycemia higher than others, but 83 itself is generally considered a very safe number.
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Thank you for the kind words. I have been kicking myself today (the Karo gate her terrible diarrhea this am…) for the over reaction. She wasn’t symptomatic but when I saw 83, then 79 two min later, the panic just sets in about it going lower and lower. Lesson learned. I won’t intervene with karo unless she hits 50.

not our best night but we got through it. She is on the back deck enjoying this mild sunshine and seems to not be holding a grudge against me. Early to bed for both of us tonight.
Thank you all again for the help and support last night.

Wade and oregano.
 
wade said:
I have been kicking myself today (the Karo gate her terrible diarrhea this am…) for the over reaction. She wasn’t symptomatic but when I saw 83, then 79 two min later, the panic just sets in about it going lower and lower. Lesson learned. I won’t intervene with karo unless she hits 50.

not our best night but we got through it. She is on the back deck enjoying this mild sunshine and seems to not be holding a grudge against me.
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Hi Wade. Believe me, this is a mistake we ALL make when we first start seeing lower numbers! :D
It takes a little while to build one's confidence to handle the dips... knowing when and how to intervene based on when the low happens in the cycle and one's growing understanding of the reactions and tolerances of one's own kitty cat. As you say, lesson leaned. You'll know for next time!

Nice to think of little Oregano enjoying the sunny weather :cat:
 
wade said:
Thank you for the kind words. I have been kicking myself today (the Karo gate her terrible diarrhea this am…) for the over reaction. She wasn’t symptomatic but when I saw 83, then 79 two min later, the panic just sets in about it going lower and lower. Lesson learned. I won’t intervene with karo unless she hits 50.
Click to expand...

Just keep in mind the symptoms listed! If she's showing symptoms of hypoglycemia, even if she isn't under 50, it should still be treated. That's just the general cutoff. :)

And absolutely yes, better safe than sorry! I've done the exact same thing.
 
Helen + Noogi said:
Hi Wade. Believe me, this is a mistake we ALL make when we first start seeing lower numbers! :D
It takes a little while to build one's confidence to handle the dips... knowing when and how to intervene based on when the low happens in the cycle and one's growing understanding of the reactions and tolerances of one's own kitty cat. As you say, lesson leaned. You'll know for next time!

Nice to think of little Oregano enjoying the sunny weather :cat:
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Thank you. Yes, definitely lesson learned. I really appreciate all the help and feedback too. This community is a lifesaver.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Start with a tsp or two of her regular low carb food and see where she is 1/2 hour later. Food can take 20-30 minutes to go from the plate to her blood stream. Not sure how long it takes for the Libre to register food differences though. Often giving them some LC will help them surf or hang out in those numbers. Those are nice pancreas healing numbers. What you do next depends on a few things. One, is she stable or still dropping? If dropping by how much? How early in the cycle is it compared to nadir? If close to typical nadir, she might be done dropping.

Another thing you'll learn over time is how carb sensitive your girl is, and how much food and how many carbs she needs to get her to stop dropping or come up. When you give extra carbs, use the Remarks section to note when, how much, and what carbs or food you used. Over time you'll get an idea of what food you need to give based on the effect those carbs had on her numbers. Cats really vary in how much carbs they need, and if after nadir, when insulin effect is fading, you'll typically need less.

Lastly, to record multiple numbers an hour, you can put a string of numbers in the spreadsheet cell. Something like 83;88@4.5;90@4.75 will tell you where she was on the hour, then half hour later and 15 minutes after that. You'll have to manually colour the cell as the automated conversion won't handle it. But most important is recording the lowest number you see. The other numbers will help you if you are feeding food and want to see how it influenced her numbers.
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Ok. This is very helpful. I have printed it and am going to keep it in her low number tool kit. Next time I won’t spike her. Thank you for the help. I really appreciate it.
 
wade said:
Ok. This is very helpful. I have printed it and am going to keep it in her low number tool kit. Next time I won’t spike her. Thank you for the help. I really appreciate it.
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You did fine. I can’t even count the number of times we overcarbbed Gracie early on. It’s almost like a “right of passage”. But Wendy is correct that you will learn how carb sensitive she is and what works. When she’s above 50, if you start with lower carb food, test in 30, then you will see how she does BUT the caveat to that is if she is dropping fast into 50 early on in the cycle (by +2). Then you probably want to slow her down with some higher carb food but save the karo for below 50. And if you get a lower number late in the cycle, that little bit of LC might boost her up a bit because the insulin is likely wearing off as well.

I see you took another reduction after the second cycle with a number below 90. Because of the depot, it’s not unusual for a cat who has earned a reduction in one cycle to drop low again the next. I’d take her dose back up to 2.25u for a week unless she drops below 90 again. Sound good?
 
Marje and Gracie said:
You did fine. I can’t even count the number of times we overcarbbed Gracie early on. It’s almost like a “right of passage”. But Wendy is correct that you will learn how carb sensitive she is and what works. When she’s above 50, if you start with lower carb food, test in 30, then you will see how she does BUT the caveat to that is if she is dropping fast into 50 early on in the cycle (by +2). Then you probably want to slow her down with some higher carb food but save the karo for below 50. And if you get a lower number late in the cycle, that little bit of LC might boost her up a bit because the insulin is likely wearing off as well.

I see you took another reduction after the second cycle with a number below 90. Because of the depot, it’s not unusual for a cat who has earned a reduction in one cycle to drop low again the next. I’d take her dose back up to 2.25u for a week unless she drops below 90 again. Sound good?
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yep. Sounds good. I did the “earned reduction” wrong but corrected that based on folks’ feedback here. Back to 2.25 units starting with tonight’s dose (half an hour ago) and for next 7 days.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
see you took another reduction after the second cycle with a number below 90. Because of the depot, it’s not unusual for a cat who has earned a reduction in one cycle to drop low again the next. I’d take her dose back up to 2.25u for a week unless she drops below 90 again. Sound good?
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Hi Marje, I don't follow SLGS, but I try to help those that do. I was under the impression that when following SLGS, every drop under 90 was a dose reduction even if back to back. Is that not the case?
I'm just asking in case this comes up again so I can advise correctly.
 
Angela & Cleo said:
Hi Marje, I don't follow SLGS, but I try to help those that do. I was under the impression that when following SLGS, every drop under 90 was a dose reduction even if back to back. Is that not the case?
I'm just asking in case this comes up again so I can advise correctly.
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Just as with TR, the depot can affect the next few cycles and it is not uncommon to see the BG dip below the reduction point again the first cycle after a reduction. We don’t usually take back-to-back reductions with TR unless the BG drops fairly low the subsequent cycle or drops and stays low several hours. Then it’s worth reducing again and draining the depot.

In this case, the BG dipped barely below 90 in the subsequent cycle and then went up although that 292 looks suspicious. If Oregano had dropped down into much lower numbers or stayed low for a long time, another reduction would be warranted.

Because neither method addresses this, determining when to reduce when the BG drops again takes experience and consideration of patterns.

Thanks for asking and learning.
 
Thank you very much for this. I have been told by other members that every drop under 90 is a reduction regardless of where or when in the cycles and even back to back.
I can see how there is, and should be, some flexibility with taking back to back reductions AND on a case by case basis. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I can see that here. @wade I'm excited to see what Oregano lands after the depot at 2.25u stabilize :)
 
Angela & Cleo said:
Thank you very much for this. I have been told by other members that every drop under 90 is a reduction regardless of where or when in the cycles and even back to back.
I can see how there is, and should be, some flexibility with taking back to back reductions AND on a case by case basis. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I can see that here. @wade I'm excited to see what Oregano lands after the depot at 2.25u stabilize :)
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yes ma’am, I am too. So far she is hanging out on the mid to high 200’s most of the day with some firsts into the low 300s. We have not been on 2.25 long though so jury’s still out.
 
Angela & Cleo said:
Thank you very much for this. I have been told by other members that every drop under 90 is a reduction regardless of where or when in the cycles and even back to back.
I can see how there is, and should be, some flexibility with taking back to back reductions AND on a case by case basis. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I can see that here. @wade I'm excited to see what Oregano lands after the depot at 2.25u stabilize :)
Click to expand...
Yes we have to use some common sense, too. With Oregano’s high numbers, if we decrease her too soon, she’s just going to spend a longer time at unhealthy BGs and with just a toe dipped in green that one cycle, I didn’t want to leave her “stranded” in another week of high BGs.

Reading SSs is an art as much as a science and takes years to learn, really.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Start with a tsp or two of her regular low carb food and see where she is 1/2 hour later. Food can take 20-30 minutes to go from the plate to her blood stream. Not sure how long it takes for the Libre to register food differences though. Often giving them some LC will help them surf or hang out in those numbers. Those are nice pancreas healing numbers. What you do next depends on a few things. One, is she stable or still dropping? If dropping by how much? How early in the cycle is it compared to nadir? If close to typical nadir, she might be done dropping.

Another thing you'll learn over time is how carb sensitive your girl is, and how much food and how many carbs she needs to get her to stop dropping or come up. When you give extra carbs, use the Remarks section to note when, how much, and what carbs or food you used. Over time you'll get an idea of what food you need to give based on the effect those carbs had on her numbers. Cats really vary in how much carbs they need, and if after nadir, when insulin effect is fading, you'll typically need less.

Lastly, to record multiple numbers an hour, you can put a string of numbers in the spreadsheet cell. Something like 83;88@4.5;90@4.75 will tell you where she was on the hour, then half hour later and 15 minutes after that. You'll have to manually colour the cell as the automated conversion won't handle it. But most important is recording the lowest number you see. The other numbers will help you if you are feeding food and want to see how it influenced her numbers.
Click to expand...
 
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