1/14 Molly 4 days, 7.5 cycles of majority reds (400's)

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Michele&Molly

Michele&Molly

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The numbers are just so bad!!

After the error of W not shooting the am shot on the 19th, we changed the shot times on the 20th. Since that time, Molly has received 2u at 6 and 6 consistently. I beleive it's been enough time to refill the storage shed and allow for settle time and yet the numbers are worse than ever.

Could i bother you to please look at her ss? Really worried about her.

p.s. bx still great - eating, lovey, purring, etc.
 
Seems to me like skipping a shot for a cat which isn't very well regulated to begin with is like starting over. If you're comfortable giving more next shot perhaps you could see if 2.25 at least gets her out of 400s. The 2U did bring her down some by +4, but looks like 2U is not enough again. Her numbers were better on 2.5U even!

Sometimes we may be too cautious on dose increases 'cause we don't want anyone's kitty to go too low 'cause even though we've tried 1.75U, it didn't seem to help much. Do you have a 3 day weekend coming up next month for President's Day where you could got more spot checks?

She made some progress on 2.5U, then on the one good day, the 11th, dose was dropped to 2U. You need to shoot those lower preshots at regular dose and get some data before deciding that 2.5U is too much.
 
Please don't get discouraged. Remember the advice to gradually increase the dose when you started over at the 1.75? I agree with Vicky, now maybe try 2.25.

Okay, I have food questions again. I am glad you went back to feeding when you give the shot in the AM, but are you feeding at +11 in the PM and giving the shot an hour later? I am sorry if I am misreading that. If so, then you might want to change that to feeding when you give the shot like in the morning. Then give her snack before you go to bed.
 
Please keep the feeding questions and advice going, i appreciate them.

The only reason i feed at +11 (5pm) is because when i get home from work (between 4 & 5 pm) the cats are begging for food. I mean begging (in the form of climbing up my legs) and it's all i can do to hold them off until 5!!! Having them wait till 6pm is having them wait 12 hours - i just feel so badly for them.

How often do all of you feed?

Thanks again for the feedback, i really appreciate it.
 
Michele&Molly said:
Please keep the feeding questions and advice going, i appreciate them.

The only reason i feed at +11 (5pm) is because when i get home from work (between 4 & 5 pm) the cats are begging for food. I mean begging (in the form of climbing up my legs) and it's all i can do to hold them off until 5!!! Having them wait till 6pm is having them wait 12 hours - i just feel so badly for them.

How often do all of you feed?

Thanks again for the feedback, i really appreciate it.
Click to expand...

I feed my cats in the morning before I leave for work and I set Gandalf's feeder to go off at +5. He's had the feeder since the early days. I try to put plenty of food in it in case the others want to eat it, but I also try to put out plenty for them so that they have theirs to eat and leave his alone at least until he's gotten some of it. They don't like Wellness as much, so I've been mixing Wellness & Friskies for him, the others get only Friskies, 1 can twice a day.

I feed them again when I get home, which is usually until at least +10 or more. I feed 2 of them on a table Gandalf can't get to and Tigget cleans hers up, so he doesn't get fed till +12 or he eats what's left of his feeder. I've never considered him being too affected by low carb food, so I don't worry too much about it, but I don't feed him until after his shot.

I don't know how many cats you have. Can you separate them somehow and feed the others before Molly? I know it seems cruel, but if you try it a couple times and see that it improves her numbers it would be worth the upset to her routine.
 
just checking some obvious's that you "may not see for looking"....

how old is current lev cart?

Are you SURE what you are feeding is low carb? Did you change varieties or lables? Double check with J&B food charts...

Is there any possibility DH is giving high carb snacks when you are not looking? Any chance YOU are giving hc snacks?

is there any chance Molly is in need of dental or could be dealing with any other illness or pain?

Any chance your meter needs calibrating or went bad? batteries? do you have test solution? Using the right strips with the right code key or whatever?

any chance she is enjoying the beverages and snacks with the football lovers?

Please make sure you are checking for ketones at this level and try to remember to love her extra so she doesn't feel your disappointment too much- k?

hang in there!
 
Michele&Molly said:
Please keep the feeding questions and advice going, i appreciate them.

The only reason i feed at +11 (5pm) is because when i get home from work (between 4 & 5 pm) the cats are begging for food. I mean begging (in the form of climbing up my legs) and it's all i can do to hold them off until 5!!! Having them wait till 6pm is having them wait 12 hours - i just feel so badly for them.

How often do all of you feed?

Thanks again for the feedback, i really appreciate it.
Click to expand...

I feed at shot time AM and PM with a small cooked chicken snack at about +6 or 7 in the afternoon, and at about +4 or +5 in the evening before bed. I know that is not easy for you to do. I was thinking the timed feeder too might help here.

When you feed at +10 or later with these cats that have been diabetic for a long time (or most diabetic cats for that matter that are striving for regulation), you are causing a food spike and then you are dosing on that food spike number. You never get a true reading at shot time, plus the insulin has to play catch up for the next couple of hours until onset.

I know it is hard when you come home to a bunch of hungry kitties! Really, maybe the timer might be the answer. I think I saw a post for recommended timers in the Community forum recently.
 
Easy fix - don't come home until +12! Lol, works for me though.

I feed when I get up, before I go to work (+1.5-2), when I come home (+12) and before bed (+4-5). The amount of their daily food was 1/5th, 2/5ths, 1/5th, 1/5th, respectively. That was when Beau was on insulin. Lately, I feed once when I get up by throwing 3 cans in a big bowl, mushing it all up and dishing it out - that's 3/5ths of their daily amt. There is sometimes food left in the bowls at night.

In general, I was testing and shooting at +12 and right after he finished eating - so no food had hit his blood stream yet and it had been at least 7 hours since I last fed.
 
Hi all -

Shelia, would you mind explaining, in more detail, how you do the feeding in your household (or how it was when B was diabetic -wow, doesn't that sound nice!)? From what i can understand of it, it may work for us but i'm a little confused by the two different posts in which you explained it. Am i correct in understanding that when you wake up you mix 5 cans of food together? How many cats is that for (I have 3 cats i need to feed) and are you using the big cans or small FF cans. I think you said you use Friskies - how can i equate that to the FF cans?

After you mix the 5 cans together (when you wake up), you then feed everyone from the large bowl leaving just enough for a snack before you leave for work - do i have this correct? Then when you get home from work, you repeat the process? 5 cans again? One helping for dinner and the rest for the nighttime snack?

I would be okay having them all wait until +12 for dinner as long as it's not 12 hrs btw meals - it's hard on them. I would absolutely, happily, try your "big bowl method" which would allow W to give them the rest of the food before he left for work (making it +2/+2.5).

I should also point out that i have growing concern that Molly is as fat as a house! Everyone gets the same amount, the boys just, how do i say? do better with it? Poor Molly is just a fatty. I am not going to get crazy with her weight right now.

Also, thanks Pamela for repeatedly pointing out the error of our ways. Only a true friend can tell you when you're screwing something up : ) I appreciate it a lot!!

And thanks Melissa for the questions - all that stuff is good. The cart appears to be working, we only feed LC FF, the only treats she receives are Beefeaters freeze dried chicken livers or cod, she had a full dental less than 5 months ago, she does not appear to have any other medical woes and her bx is great. W knows i would go Glen Close on him if he even showed her a singular grain of rice much less give her something with carbs in it!!! Our meter -a One Touch Ultra Mini is working correctly (although i am anxious to get back to the ReLion that i love - i just happen to have a lot of free strips for the One Touch).

Thanks again you guys, -M
 
Um, Michele, has Molly ever been tested for acromegaly???? One of the symptoms is weight gain rather than weight loss coupled with the diabetes. With her numbers as bad as they are, she should not be gaining weight. Has she really gained weight or is she just "big-boned"?

Where's that semi-regular post "Acromegaly - what we know." You might want to check out the High Dose ISG because those are acro cats and if anyone can tell you what test to get and what the results mean, they can.
 
Acro is dx with simple test, right?

trip to vet, take some blood, wait results?

Why would Molly have had such decent response on the 2u not so long ago though if she is acro?

Also- my Paul got fat after starting treatment, too...even through the diet controlled days and earlier when he was regulated even.

I now portion out his food ( 2.6oz BID ) into one dish and stand over him while he eats and shoo him off the other kids dishes...he is now loosing weight...and ( knockwood) reducing doses! (antijinx)

Vicky has a good point, though, so you may want to schedule the test.
 
Probably the easiest concept is to start by figuring out how much TOTAL food is needed per day in your household and divide that by 4 - if you are feeding four meals, which is what I was doing when Beau was on insulin (he is still diabetic, btw, just diet controlled).

When I had 4 cats, I fed one can of Friskies per day each, plus some boiled chicken as treats.If you have 3 cats, so I split 1 can in 4ths four times a day. I would think that feeding a total of 6 cans of Fancy Feast would be about right for your three? Divided by 4 makes that 1.5 cans, which is harder to do. I would suggest feeding once can split 3 ways when you get up and then have Will split 2 cans between them when he leaves for work. Then split one can at dinner time (+12) and 2 cans again when you go to bed. That gives a little more food for the longer duration between meals.

What I actually do NOW is feed a total of 5 cans of Friskies (F) and 1 can of FF per day. This started as 1 can F when I got up, 2 cans F when I left for work, 1 can F when I got home and 1 can ea F & FF when I went to bed. But I don't really have time to feed twice in the am so I mix 3 cans of F together in a big bowl and dish that out into 5 bowls when I get up. The night feedings are the same as before. Does that make sense?

How much does Molly weigh? She can't be THAT big! If you want to investigate the acro possibility, you can post on the high dose and ask them to look at your SS. Or PM Patti and Merlin. She is really nice. I got to meet here all way out in Seattle last summer.
 
Molly is a small cat weighing in at a whopping 15 lbs. She has never been this fat and when you look at her, straight on, her sides literally bulge out. She is beginning to have difficulty laying down and getting up with any speed or grace. Her lay down technique is to kinda just fall over onto her side. The boys (both civvies) eat the same food/same amount and they look great! (everyone is basically the same age - 6 months and 1 year apart respectively).

Tonight i changed too many variables (i can already hear Vicky yelling at me! :) but i have to do something to get these numbers down. Everyone had to wait until +12 for dinner (not easy on anyone), everyone had LC Friskies from J&B list (as opposed to FF) and i upped her dose to 2.25u (from 2u).

Fingers crossed for my little fatty dangerously in the red.

Again (and always) thank you for your advice and help my friends.
 
Melissa&Paul-Kyle said:
Acro is dx with simple test, right?

trip to vet, take some blood, wait results?

Why would Molly have had such decent response on the 2u not so long ago though if she is acro?
Click to expand...

After reading the wiki about it, it would be very rare for Molly to have it, as 90% of acro cats are male. http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Acromegaly

But the weight gain is unusual - again, my question is did she truly gain weight or has she always been a big girl - and IMO worth bringing up with your vet. At least do some research about acro cats and see if any other symptoms ring a bell.
 
PS, I know what you mean about wanting to get numbers down. Gandalf threw his first 400+ in quite a while, so we're going in Thursday for blood tests. I cannot risk lowering dose until I know we're NOT dealing with an infection.

I suggest getting bloodwork on Molly too, how long has it been? Diabetics should have bloodwork no less than every 6 months, which is minimum for senior cats anyway. I see numbers like what we have currently from Gandalf and Molly from infection because in my words, Levemir can't handle infection. That's a bad way to put it - it's more like it lets us know something's up. With both Gandalf and Molly it seems like doses they were once responding to, they have now stopped responding, so something must be up and continuing to fiddle with dose is not going to help matters.

Time to look for other possibilities. Since Gandalf receives fluids nearly every day, the possibility of infection is there, although I flush the line and replace needle after every infusion. Last year when his bloodwork came back that he had a bad infection, the vet couldn't say that that was what caused it, but it's possible. She's always full of possibilities!
 
As you probably remember, I have been through this several times with Pippin. I was so worried about upping the dose that he stayed in the red far too long. Any change in his timing or dose sets him off and he will be high usually for days after but if I had upped the dose more sooner he would have been better served I think. He was doing well on .2U until his accident, he went up and I kept thinking he needed to get back to that small dose, well he has been up to 7.5U and is now doing pretty well on 6...........their needs change and sometimes for no obvious reason.
I am not saying that is what you should do but with hindsight into Pippins numbers I wish I had upped him until he responded then slowly backed it down rather than trying to keep him on the same old dose that no longer met his needs and saw him in the danger zone for far too long.
I think the problem with a sputtering pancreas is that the needs change so quickly its hard to keep up and then BOOM their needs are much less when it does decide to function...its a dance, hes in a spin now but very soon it will be time to dip again LOL
I dont know about kitties but I feed Pips every 3-4 hours a small dish of high protein food and that seems whats best for him, it keeps everything on the level having small amounts of food in his tummy but then ferrets digestive systems are much faster than other animals but thats what works for him. If he comes out saying FEED ME! I do, I listen to what his body is telling him and its usually right.
((((((((((hugs)))))))) it will all sort itself out and you will be back to better numbers soon I am sure.
 
Glad you raised the dose Michele. Yes, the variable thing, but don't worry about it since, like you said, you need to get those numbers down.

"I am not saying that is what you should do but with hindsight into Pippins numbers I wish I had upped him until he responded then slowly backed it down rather than trying to keep him on the same old dose that no longer met his needs and saw him in the danger zone for far too long."

I agree with Deb. You know I am from the gradual doses until you see a breakthrough camp, but I know it has been hard for you because of work and not being able to be there to test. I am still wondering if getting an auto feeder might ease your mind a little there, set to about four hours after the shot and then again about six hours after with small chicken snacks or something LC in there. But then again, with multiple cats you wouldn't know if she got her share so maybe that wouldn't work.

How long has she been overweight like this? Has she leveled off or has she just steadily been increasing since her dx?

One thing about being overweight with diabetics is that it causes insulin resistance. The best way to correct that is to lose weight but that is easier said than done since you risk bringing on HL if you do it too rapidly. Dr. Lisa has an excellent write up on feline obesity on her webpage. The first part she explains the evils of dry food, but the rest after that talks about calories versus ounces of food, and how to implement a safe weight loss program and portion control, among other important things. I see that she has added some more to the page recently which I need to go back and read. Anyway, here is the link:

http://www.catinfo.org/feline_obesity.htm

I hope the new dose helps and you see some progress for your sweet girl.
 
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