2. Java, elder cat

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Lois and Java, Mar 23, 2017.

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  1. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Starting a new thread...
    It's been an awful day for Java.
    634 amps
    Fat 1 unit
    549 at +4
    555 at +8.5
    125 ml subq fluid at +9.5.
    I'd swear that wasn't a fur shot.
    I don't understand why it's so high. From eating FF? Is a fur shot the only explanation for something like this?
    I'm so sad about it. I want to help him feel better right now, yet don't know how.
    More immediately, it's an hour to PMPS. Should I use more than fat 1 unit?
     
  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    This is very frustrating for you, Lois. i would say that keeping the dose lower isn't realy helping much. Time to try careful increases - 1.25 u?
     
  3. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I'm so sad about it. I so hoped it was going to be the trick that worked to keep him low and feeling good.
    Do you think a different type of insulin is worth trying?
    His age...Running out of time.
     
  4. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You could try Lantus. It has very little flexibility in timing of doses though. You have to stick very close to 12/12. You also can't switch doses often. The shortest interval between dose changes is 3 days.
     
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  5. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I'll read about it, thanks.
     
  6. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I'm wondering genuinely if there's any explanation for high figures like today or a week ago, a 12-hour run when everything is in the 500 s.
    If I'm just wrong and they have to be fur shots, I want to know. I remember each of the three instances on those shots and they seemed good to me but if I'm wrong, I've got to figure out what I'm doing or not doing those times. Thanks!
     
  7. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Edit, I think it's okay because I'm using the AT2, not the original, would love a second opinion. Sorry to be such a pita for every little thing, you're my feedback, support, since Java has little to say. Also I can't sleep, am up too late.
    --
    I'm having a panicked sick feeling. I just read this in the Lantus thread:

    "AlphaTRAK meters and AlphaTRAK 2 test strips:
    If AlphaTRAK users choose not to upgrade to the newer AlphaTrak 2 meter, you can continue to use your original AlphaTRAK meter with the new AlphaTRAK 2 test strips. However, you must use CODE 7 for all species. For the most accurate AlphaTRAK® test results, upgrading to the new AlphaTRAK® 2 meter is suggested by the manufacturer."

    When I switched back to the AT after using the HS meter, I sat down with the manual and went through it. It said to use the code on the strips. This is what is on the cylinder and so I coded 37 and that is what I have been using these last many weeks. Have I been using the wrong setting?

    IMG_20170324_021703.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  8. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    If you're using the At2 and not the original, I believe you want to code based on the vial, like you said you have been. I think that is info specifically for the old meter and the new strips.
     
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  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Lois,

    Is your AT meter one that's magenta in colour and says "AlphaTrak2" above the screen? If so, then you have to set the code that's on the current vial of test strips. In the photo above, it's 37. Do you have a bottle of control solution to check a strip each time you open a new vial?

    Re fur shots: after every injection I rub my fingers lightly over Teasel's fur where I injected and smell them or I put my nose right into that fur. If it smells a lot of the strong "Band-Aid" insulin smell, then I know there's been a full or partial fur shot. Is your routine similar with Java?

    I don't know how to explain those blacks. I have read here that underweight cats are harder to control, likely because fat is a metabolically active tissue that plays a role. My approach when flummoxed by BG numbers is to immediately simplify what I'm doing to reduce all variables to the absolute minimum. So - dose size, dose timing, meal type, meal amount, meal timing, meter used, etc. There are many things that can influence the BG in the cat's physiology and many things in what we do that can also have an impact.

    Re dosing: it's very likely that you'll have to try small dose increases. He's never had more than 1.5 u. Their insulin needs change and if they are in high numbers for some time they can become resistant. Add to that a bouncy cat and you have a tricky situation on your hands.

    Maybe try:
    • 1.25 u AM and PM today with a plan to increase to 1.5 u tomorrow. This will be the variable to focus on for now
    • use the same meter all the time, no back and forth, double checking, etc.
    • feed him his usual diet in the way that works for him but no food in the 2 hours before a PS test. FF pate is a low carb food and shouldn't wreak havoc with BG. YA is an approved dry food but some people find it can affect BG.
    If you can take a deep breath, focus on the dose variable alone (after eliminating any possible issues with test strip viability, injection technique, etc.) and just calmly carry out your routine you'll be much better for that. We do the best we can and that's all that can be asked of us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  10. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Thanks Kris, that's all super helpful.

    You can see how bony his butt has gotten. But he's still enjoying going outside to drink rainwater.
     

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  11. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Omg. 702 this morning.
    That's with all food, meaning YA, up.
    His body isn't digesting itself I hope.
    I can barely get him to eat any food.
    He just wants to go outside and drink water. Well, he has to eat food first, watered down if I have to.
    1.5 after he eats sone food.
     
  12. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Have you tried sprinkling some treats on it or maybe adding a bit of tuna juice to make it more palatable?
     
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  13. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I had been merely feeling for the resistance of his skin or fascia as I inject of the needle, followed by rubbing the spot and feeling for moisture.

    Now, I do that and double check the needle before injection to be sure it contains the amount it should have.

    This morning, I double check the amount, made a tent on a side, injected, could feel the resistance of his skin, looked down to see the needle in his skin before I pulled it out - it was - pulled the needle out, put my nose down and smelled - No Band-Aid smell, felt - no moisture. We're a little over 1.5 hrs. after injection and it's gone up to 736. I've been urging FF on him but he hasn't eaten all that much. He tends to slurp the wettest parts and leave dry FF behind, which makes it hard to measure.

    I honestly don't know what to do or what to think. He gave me the slip in the backyard comma and when I found him he was on top of the shed, which was a huge surprise.
     
  14. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Can you test for ketones again, Lois? I know you did last night.
     
  15. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Lois,

    Make sure you don't rub the injection site too much after the shot. It can affect the insulin deposit. I really don't know what to say about those crazy numbers. Could he have a UTI or something going on? Dental? Aside from insulin dose, something else might be driving it. Is he due for senior blood panel or similar any time soon?
     
  16. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I put water in it and make a kind of slurry, and he slurps the watery part leaving behind dry-ish chunks.

    He's so focused on going outside, it's hard to get him to eat anything. What I've been doing a lot of spending the entire afternoon with him, and bringing food to him in bed every hour or two. When he gets really hungry he will get up and eat YA.

    Maybe it'll go up and then come back down again. My vet is open until noon, but honestly you guys have been more helpful than he has with regard to the diabetes. I hope I'm just stressing now and then it'll come down later, but it should have come down already!
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
    Reason for edit: Fix typos
  17. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oh no, I didn't know that, yeah I've been rubbing it. But I think I rub all of them.

    Maybe I should take him in for a blood panel before the vet closes.
     
  18. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Your vet might be useful for non-diabetes issues that can affect BG. A general checkup and blood work might be a good idea.
     
  19. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Yeah, just did it last night. It'll be a little while before he has to pee again.
     
  20. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Let us know what they say :bighug:
     
  21. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Yeah, this is bananas.
    Photo of his FF slurry.
     

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  22. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That's what Teasel's meals look like.
     
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  23. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    He ate a little more, tested, now +2.
    637. It's going down!!
    I'm so sorry to bother everyone.
    It's time for a blood test anyway though, I'm going to call and see if I'd have the results on Monday.
    He's a drop in cat only vet, It's usually crowded on Saturdays with long waits, I might take him on Monday, less stress...
    Just called, they're not busy!
     
  24. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Do your cats go up before they go down? Is that normal?
     
  25. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Teasel often has a food spike early in a cycle. It was more pronounced on ProZinc than it is now on Lantus.
     
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  26. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Never a both, Lois! :bighug:
     
  27. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    You've been by my side through all of this Kris, (thank you!) do you think lantis is something I should try?
     
  28. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Well, Lois, it might be worth trying. I think I said before that it's less forgiving than ProZinc wrt dose timing and changing dose. You have to stick to a strict 12/12 schedule as much as possible and doses have to be held for certain lengths of time. Go read the info stickies on the L&L forum to get a feel for what the depot is and how these insulins work and are dosed. There are two protocols, TR and SLGS, and they're explained in detail.

    After you've studied the info, come back and ask any/all questions. I'll try to answer them.
     
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  29. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Lois, you're NEVER a bother. That's why we're here!

    I do think a general vet checkup would be good...that way you're sure nothing like that is affecting the numbers.

    I believe Lantus has a flatter cycle, which might be good for Java.
     
  30. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Vet
    Took blood, results Monday
    Dehydrated, which I missed
    Gave fluids
    I forgot I was supposed to be somewhere at 12:30 akkkk
     
  31. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Oh no! Well...I'm glad you were able to get him checked out and he got sme fluids...might make him feel better.
     
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  32. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    He's really out of it. I followed him around the yard for awhile since all he wanted was to be outside, then made him come inside when he almost gave me the slip. He may feel so cruddy that he wants to go hide somewhere and die, which is not acceptable to me. He's barely eaten anything today. I'm just hanging out next to him on the bed, trying to get him to eat now and then.

    I remembered about my theater commitment while I was in the waiting room, so I rushed through the vet exam, as their last patient of the day. He's 8 pounds something, down from 10 pounds something on February 13th or 14. I'll get more information on Monday.

    I'm at a stage where it's really hard to tell how sick he is and how close to the end of his life, versus having something that he can recover from or live with longer.

    Today is a great example of how confusing it is. His BG was off the charts this morning, and he somehow managed to get up on top of the roof of the shed (he can walk nearly straight across from an uphill neighbors deck to our shared fence, but remember, he fell off it just a few weeks ago, too.)

    The vet said it could be as kidneys, it could be that ringers is no longer appropriate and he needs a fluid that has NaCl in it now, we just won't know until we get the blood results on Monday.

    And I'm keeping a mental list of how he's doing, in that horrible place of having to decide whether or not he's close to or at the point of being put down, how close or far away is that.
    PS I just got him to eat something, and I tested his BG first and it's 101. Crazy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  33. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry for what you are going through, Lois. :bighug::bighug::bighug: Just keep in mind the wonderful 20 years you have had with him and make him as happy and comfortable as you can. I lost my last boy to cancer and he waited until I went to work before he set a paw on the rainbow bridge. I was hoping he would pass in his sleep the night before, in my arms. *Paws crossed* though that the Vet will see something to give you more time. We are never prepared to let them go.
     
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  34. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Lois, sending you and Java lots of love tonight. :bighug:
     
  35. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    This is such a difficult thing to wrap your head around, Lois. Try to put the worst case scenarios in the back of your mind at least until you get the blood work results on Monday. Who knows where that lovely blue came from?

    Sensing you all the positive energy I can muster ... :bighug:
     
  36. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Oh Lois...this is such a tough time, I know. I agree with Kris. Try to take it one day at a time, and just enjoy being with him until you get the blood work. Hopefully that will give you some ideas on how to keep him comfortable...I believe you will know when it's time.

    Sending you tons of hugs and love.
     
  37. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Thank you Kris, Yong, Rachel and Djamila. While it's true I have a tendency to get hyper and catastrophize what's going on.... That reaction is not entirely unfounded.

    The time difference. Hoping to catch you.
    30 minutes before p.m. pre-shot.
    At +10, was 204.
    FF right before +10, most he ate all day, not much.
    Wondering if 1.5?
     
  38. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I kept smelling urine, and he's had a couple of instances where he didn't get his butt the whole way into the litter box, and peed on the plastic litter catcher outside. ( Hooray for that thing). I thought maybe he had a little bit of urine on his butt. Couldn't entirely place it.

    I'm assuming it was him, figured out there was urine all over the warm pads. It's a layer of three things, so it didn't get through to my bedding. I'm washing it all now. I bought some big washable and waterproof bed pads that I never used when my mother was in hospice. Might be time to get one of those out.
     
  39. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    262 PMPS
    Stick with 1.5?
    Edit: I'm answering my own question, I'm sticking with 1.5. The Skyrocket to 700 BG this am is unexplained, and every time I vary from a planned dose, it's been a mistake. I'm here to test him, steer if I need to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  40. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    262 PMPS
    +2 - 388
    +4 - 309
    Small urine dribble on just-cleaned pillowcase & pillow, found at midnight. Time for pads. He's using the box. Not sure why the incontinence.

    Question + thinking out loud. Tomorrow afternoon has gotten complicated after a request for help from a sick friend. I'll be gone ~noon to ~7 pm. I can test until +4. Neighbour can take food up 2 hr before PMPT. Still shoot 1.5?

    +6 - 255
    +8 - 193
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  41. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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  42. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Nicely done, Java! :cat:
     
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  43. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Those are some great numbers!
     
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  44. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    You're right, hey, those are!
    311 for AMPT too.
    He had a snack of YA before I took everything up ~5 am... I wondered then if that would make it go high.
    I carried him to near / in sight of the litter box then and after a little indecision, he decided to use it.
    He's having some FF now.
     
  45. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oh that's interesting, could be it for sure. Already knew his kidneys were weakly failing, and he had high #s on the ___ test that indicates pancreatitis too.

    I put his Feb Labs at the lab tab already, will add new one. I have the last 4 or 5 years of annual labs, add those? Curious, are there lab results readers here?

    I wonder if a big diff is not rubbing the insulin. That was my habit, sometimes more vigorously than others. Will have to look up what that is. I'd never heard that until you mentioned it Kris.
     
  46. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    That would be nice if it is just that simple as no rubbing the insulin spot :D. I read or heard something about it but I cannot find it now :(
     
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  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    @Marje and Gracie is really good at it.
     
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  48. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Uh oh, 74 at +4.5
    70. 35 minutes later.
    Anyone around d?
    He's eating, I just got two pill pockets in him, 1)2 Zobaline. He's eating ya on his own.
    I have to leave in about 20 minutes. If it isn't coming up when I get out of the shower, I think I should break out the gravy food, yes?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  49. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Give him a snack of regular food and retest in 30 minutes. This is amazing, Lois!
     
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  50. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    See edits. I know, and he's acting really normal. It's going to be really interesting to talk to the vet tomorrow to figure out what on Earth was going on
     
  51. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you might have to give gravy food if he's not on his way up. Why do they do this when we have to go somewhere?!
     
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  52. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    So - he's been high quite a while and probably had glucose toxicity which creates insulin resistance. Think of it as a "glass floor" that has to be broken through to get numbers dropping. Increasing the dose carefully is how you get that "floor- breaking" dose. Once you're through that barrier, they can begin responding to insulin more vigorously and more monitoring is needed.
     
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  53. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Where is he now, Lois?
     
  54. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Whew! 117.
    And I was going to leave at noon.
    This is not the only reason I stayed here until 2 but it is the best one now
     
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  55. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I should leave FF out?
    Neighbor taking all food up at 5 pm fur me
     
  56. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    This is good. Leave food out for him.
     
  57. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Way to go, Java! :cat:
     
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  58. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Nicely done Java!
     
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  59. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I read about on a human diabetes website yesterday when I went looking.
     
  60. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Now I feel kind of bad for giving Java FF quite late, because he went from 206 to 270 in 1.5 hrs., But am also glad I won't have to worry that he'll go too low during wee hours (even more wee hours that is).
     
  61. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    At least you know you can rest since you know he won't go too low!
     
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  62. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Those yellows last night aren't bad at all, especially after the PMPS black. That one was expected after the nice greens he had.

    Re rubbing the injection site: insulin is a protein molecule and its structure is key in what it does. Protein structure can be denatured by many things - heat (eg. cooking meat, eggs, etc.), mechanical stress (why we don't shake insulin vials), pH, etc. I think rubbing is a mechanical stressor.
     
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  63. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Darn, it's back up high again, and he was subdued and floppy this am, not like himself. Am helping friend who's having surgery, will be bouncing between home to test J and the hospital.
     
  64. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Still bouncing. Just keep on.
     
  65. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    You are both bouncing ;)
     
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  66. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    It's +2 and it's gone up! ::Noises of despair::
    606 from AMPT of 564.
    Well off to my next stop on my peripetetic day! I had enough time to take him outside to drink rainwater and get a little Sun.
     
  67. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I hate this bouncing thing. My poor Kitty!
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I hate bouncing too but can 't do much about it.
     
  69. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    As I was driving, I was thinking that I should have said, OUR poor kitties.

    Java's labs are back. I don't know what all the functions mean. I don't have time to type it into the SS tab for labs right now, but I will see if I can attach it here. It doesn't look good, lots of high things.
    Am going to try to call the vet but first need to call the hospital, see if friend is out of surgery. BTW, her daughter has Down Syndrome, and is Type 1, with bouncy diabetes - brittle diabetes, they call it - and she and her husband haven't slept a full night's sleep in over 30 years. They have to wake up and test her every 2 hours during the night, every night. Daughter's on Lantus among others I think. Okay, more phone calls, less chat, Lois
    attachment on edit I think, if I can
     

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    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  70. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Friend still in surgery. Vet with someone. Googling.
    It looks like pancreatitis. We got that at the last test, mid Feb. Vet said the treatment was fluids and adequate food. I've been doing that, he has had an appetite, eats, pees, poops okay. He does not look comfortable.
    Oh great, this article talks about how painful it is.
    http://www.allfelinehospital.com/pancreatitis.pml
    Well, the vet will call back. Friend's out of surgery, in recovery now.
    Edits. My guess is electrolytes ... Ringer's isn't' doing it. The bupe and gabapentin fiascos... will have to try again with lower doses.
    I don't want vet to give up on Java because of his age. He's shown what a remarkably resilient cat he is. But this is definitely wearing him down. Q of what he can recover from.
     
  71. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how to read test results, Lois. @Marje and Gracie is very good at it. I hope she sees this tag.
     
  72. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Thanks.
    In all that, I just checked his BG, now it's ~+5, it's 656. Crum. Going up. He's so sleepy, out of it.
    Susan just went into the recovery room and will be there for at least an hour, hour and a half. I think I 'm going to take him to over there (to vet). Whatever he gave him on Saturday really worked, I want him to get it again.
     
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  73. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Was it a different mix of fluids? Ask about diabetes insipidus. It's uncommon but some cats have to have it! Maybe Java is one of them.
     
  74. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I dont' know. They took him into a back room and then I wandered that way but the fluids were done. It just looked like a bag.... and I was so stressed about the theater thing that I'd forgotten, I wasn't being logical, I was just asking them to get me out asap.
    Edit, I will ask! I really have to get a printer. The only bad part about retirement is not having easy access to all the latest and greatest devices... not that a simple printer is that hard ... anyway you get it.
    Edit, I was going to give you my cell # so we could text while I was there, but the vet office is in a dead zone, dammit.
     
  75. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    I wouldn't need your cell number if the vet office had free wi fi, Lois. I'd have to email your phone wouldn't I - sorry if I'm betraying my tech ignorance. Moot anyway ...
     
  76. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Not bad news, pretty good news, needs fluids, have to run to hospital later
     
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  77. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Am back from getting friend home from the hospital. No complications for her, yay.

    Java is acting quite chipper. I think it must be the shock of going to the vet and back, because his BG is up to 697.

    Lily has disappeared. Freaked out by sound of pet crate. Could she have darted out by my ankles, unseen, when I went outside with Java before hospital run? There's a deer in my backyard, so coyotes in yard unlikely.

    Vet said he thinks fluids, ringers one day and sodium chloride the next day would be helpful for him. He gave Java sodium chloride and a B12 shot on Sat. I'd like to find Lily, first, but I think I'd better give him fluid now and see if that helps.

    I guess stick with 1.5? What a day.
     
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  78. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    I hope you find Lily safe and sound, and the fluids help Java boy. Sticking with 1.5U sounds good to me but Maury is making me question everything I have learned lol! :bighug:
     
  79. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I'm really bad at reading charts, but I just looked at yours and I'm completely jealous of Maury's #s. All those yellows and Blues. Green's. only one black.
    What does it mean when you have an F or S in front of unit #?
     
  80. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I went outside and called Lily all over yard. When I came in, she came rushing into the kitchen to say hello. She has found one heck of a hiding spot. Java's sodium chloride is warming in a bowl of hot water.
     
  81. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    F or S in front of the dose number stands for "fat" or "skinny".
     
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  82. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I was just reading about injection sites on cats, and in 3 different places, they talked about pulling the plunger back after you put the needle in the cat. when you pull the plunger back if you get any blood in the syringe you should throw it out and get a new syringe. I've never heard that one before. Do you guys do that?
    There's some human error that I'm doing in these shots. They're all on Java side. There's something about them that I'm doing wrong. I mean that's just logical, that has to be what's happening.
     
  83. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    No, I don't pull the plunger back, never have. As far as shot technique, if all the insulin goes in (no wetness or insulin smell) and you don't rub hard, that's good enough. I think Java's erratic BGs are more a function of age, lack of body fat, other health issues, etc.
     
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  84. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Don't drive myself crazy trying to fix the bouncing and the highs?
    Java peed on the pad in his crate on the way home. Pretty sure he just had to go, and he was prevented from getting to litter. Now I think that's what happened a couple days ago also, and I just didn't notice wetness on the pad when I got home. This is a mostly silent cat. He made 2 or 3 cries I've never heard before on Saturday on the way home, and one today. Suspect he was distressed about peeing. Still keeping the waterproof pad out, but not on top of everything.
    Edit, he doesn't have urinary issues, he's happily peeing on his favorite plants outside, and nearly always gets his butt inside the litter pan when he pees.
     
  85. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Lois, I'm in awe of how much energy you have for everything! Taking care of friends, theater, taking care of your kitties! I'm so glad Lily came back quickly, and that Java seems to be benefiting from the fluids.

    I don't pull the plunger back either. I've always wanted to because I read it was a good idea, but there's no way Samir would hold still for that kind of precision. This morning he ran off with the syringe still stuck in his side! He's a quick one! I was laughing so hard it was tough to chase him down.

    I hope you have Java have a restful evening, and bless you for all the love and care you put into the world around you!
     
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  86. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    You'll feel a lot better if you let go of this, Lois. Java is a bouncer and attempts to control it have only a minor effect, if any. Let him bounce. Intervening with food works quite well if they dive too low so save it for that. The rest of the time just let him eat his low carb food the way he likes, be it grazing or many small meals. The focus should be on the insulin dose, increasing it carefully as needed or backing off if he drops too low. BTW - too low means a lime green on the SS.

    This advice comes from someone who has an extremely bouncy cat! ;)
     
  87. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Thank you.
    Oh Sam, that's not what to do! Poor guy.
    One of these days I'll try stabbinating Lily's ear, see how she handles it, or not, we'll see. She's such a scaredy-cat, so different from Java.

    Wow his BG has gone down almost 300 points in 2 hours. Looks like I'll be up every couple of hours tonight!
    669 PMPS
    1.5 U, then 150 ml nacl fluid
    392 at +2
    184 at +4
    He's been eating FF readily; I'm putting it in front of him often. It's nice to see him eat, because he's lost weight the last few weeks.
    He also had 7 fiber treats, and a pill pocket with Zobaline; I am steering in a small way, I think. He looks really good at this BG. Setting alarm and the gravy food ready to open in the kitchen if I need it.

    231 at +6. Well, would've been nice to keep it low, oh well looks like steering worked, now don't have to worry so much Tonight.

    352 at 3:50 am, +8. Darn it, up so high already.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  88. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Just a bounce...not that surprising at all, Lois. I know it's not FUN, but it happens. Heck, we had a cat on here once who bounced for 2 years...until suddenly one day, he just needed less and less insulin and went into remission!

    I'm with Kris. You can't control it unfortunately, so you just have to accept it and remember that Java is older and you're doing what you can to keep him happy and comfortable.
     
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  89. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Hi Lois,

    Exciting times! He's not staying that long in high bounce numbers at this dose. Focus more on how low the dose takes him over the time he's on it. If he doesn't go below mid blue after several cycles, increase by 0.25 u. That's what I have to focus on for Teasel. His highs are almost always inflated from bouncing ("fake" highs? ;)).
     
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  90. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Two years of bouncing and then stopped? Wow, that's amazing.

    << Exciting times! He's not staying that long in high bounce numbers at this dose. Focus more on how low the dose takes him over the time he's on it. If he doesn't go below mid blue after several cycles, increase by 0.25 u.

    How can I trust what the dose does, when all I have to do to change it to feed him more food? Or is that a faulty premise?

    I'm very lucky that he nearly always will eat when I bring him food. The key is, bringing him food. He isn't just habituated into having food brought to him (I think of it as bringing grandfather his meals on a tray rather than making him come downstairs to the dining room), he often will go without eating if I leave him alone to develop hunger. And of course that's not a sure thing either, because I will happen upon him eating YA that's always out, except now it's taken up two hours before PS.
     
  91. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Faulty premise. A diet of low carb food shouldn't drive BG into a crazy range. Yes, food does influence BG which is why we say no food at least 2 hours before AM and PMPS. Those tests give an idea of the effectiveness of the dose. If you feed scheduled meals and avoid food 2 hours before a nadir test, that also gives good non food influenced info.
     
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  92. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I'll get back to the above.
    Argh, gone all afternoon to dentist across the bay. Haven't infused him with Ringers today. I think it should be okay to skip it?
    I have a normal day tomorrow for a change!
    Poor Java is looking for food. I feel so bad for him, why does he wait to get hungry until right around when I take the food up?
     
  93. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    I can't resist what I suspect is an only in California story. After taking Susan home from the hospital yesterday, I stopped at a market in Point Reyes for a small salted caramel soft serve gelato ice cream made from water buffalo milk.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  94. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Only in California, Lois ... ;)
     
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  95. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Wow...California is sounding good to me right now!
     
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  96. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I'm from Penna. California is better. Well, it's beautiful right now, between spring and summer. It's the only time of the year that the hills are green. Everything is blooming. And the Central valley is one of the world's greatest growing regions, so, excellent food, farmers markets.
     
  97. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Hi Lois,

    Unless he surprises you, I'd try 1.75 u starting tomorrow morning.
     
  98. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    It seems like the sodium chloride fluid helps him, and helps bring his BG down, but the ringer solution does the opposite, it makes it as if there's no insulin at all. I'll call the vet tomorrow and find out why, but I think Ringers is out of the equation from this point on.

    I plan to do the NaCl fluid tomorrow, and he had blues before with that. Which makes me wonder about 1.75.
     
  99. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I feel so bad, he's coming again at this time to look at me, wondering where food is. This is a skinny kitty, getting skinnier. And I'm in the 2-hour window before testing and a shot. I understand one might say well, start doing your shots earlier, so that he could have food now. But man, some mornings it is so hard to wake up and get him tested and insulin in him already, I can't imagine doing it one or two hours earlier than I am now. I'm setting an alarm to get up and pick up all the food at dark o'clock already. End of whinging now.
     
  100. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Rachel, where are you?
     
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