Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Goose, Aug 6, 2020.
Do Daa's PZ Dosing Thread6
Time for a new thread. Link above is to previous Thread6.
The gravy food probably did make Do Daa bounce up to the red BG pre-shot, as you surmised on the SS in the Remarks column.
It looks to me like even the 3.75U dose may be higher than Do Daa needs.
I know you said your reduction point is a BG of 50.
So let's see how long Do Daa takes to clear this bounce.
And see if he drops low in the middle of the cycle and you have to prop him up with gravy food.
The other thing that was noticed today was that he didn't really eat a lot, but also wasn't given gravy to up his numbers expect later in the day and only once. How much would not eating much throughout the day contribute to the low numbers, as appose to the insulin doing a better job?
Not eating much food does tend to keep the BG levels lower.
Not having gravy food also tends to keep the BG levels lower.
That's really impossible to say Goose.
I know, I was just throwing that out there.
I'd be happy if we were able to give him less insulin!
I'd recommend holding that 3.75U dose for another cycle or 2, since Do Daa is likely bouncing from the lows on 8/7/20 AM cycle.
Ok, will do for a couple more days to see if it's working.
Since you asked me in a PM, I thought I'd link this thread for you on diabetic neuropathy and using methylcobalamin, like Zobaline.
There should be plenty of information in that thread to help you.
There are less expensive alternatives to the Zobaline.
Diane Tyler's Mom recommends Vitacost and this thread talks about that.
It will take time to see any improvement in the diabetic neuropathy. Getting the BG levels under control is key to helping to resolve the nerve damage. Nerves take time to heal. So patience is important.
It's also possible the hind leg weakness has another cause, like low potassium. Not something you can check at home, a vet visit is require.
Thanks for that!
I just ordered some of the Zobaline. I'll try that first and go from there.
Do Daa really doesn't seem to be dropping low enough on this 3.75U dose. Recommend you increase back to 4U Goose.
We've noticed that 3.75u wasn't getting into numbers we'd all like. We'll be upping the dose back to 4u shortly.
Hey, it was worth a try, the dose reduction.
It's always worth a try.
We Reduced him back to 3.75u @ pmps because of the 52 he hit @ amps +8.
Well, well, well Do Daa! A surprise for your dad. The reduction was needed. Good thing that Goose knows to do that.
Do Daa is really flirting with those low numbers, and may need to go up and down on the dose for a while.
Giving you heart palpitations?
.. I know that it was a 52 and not a 50 but we used our own judgment based on what he's done before. We're not looking to make your 'forum life' any harder or more stressful as there seems to be new members here almost on a daily bases.
No heart palpitations, I just wish he'd settle on a dose, the lower the better!
50 or 52, in my book that's still low enough to take the reduction. Glad you did.
Maybe no heart palpitations for you, but certainly for me!
Yes, Do Daa, lower doses would be good. Let's see if you can keep this lower dose going, and maybe earn another reduction. Wouldn't that be great?
Do Daa says he's sorry for the heart palpitations!
It would indeed be great for further Reductions! A 'tool box' with the right stuff in it makes all the difference. With as little sugar as possible (syrup and such).
Zobaline was started tonight.
He was Reduced to 3.5u @ pmps after he hit a 54 @ amps +4.5. He had lots of Greens today - but he also didn't eat a whole lot either. Then there was of course the bounce at pmps...
We'll try this dose for a number of days to see if it holds.
Hold on tight to that dose reduction Do Daa.
Do Daa is a very bouncy boy. But I don't have to tell you that, as you know that very well.
He ate well at amps and had a Lot of Greens again, however, I believe the really high pmps was because of over reaction to the continuously low numbers, they kept going down. So he was given a good deal of gravy over the course of the afternoon and while the high number was part of a bounce, we probably contributed a good deal to it. Hopefully it will even out in short order and he'll get accustomed to the lower dose of 3.5u.
Sounds like you know Do Daa well and have reasoned out the cause for the bounce.
So less gravy food next time?
Black = bouncing. For sure.
Yes, less gravy next time! Sometimes he just won't eat, and with those low numbers getting lower, gravy is easy to give him. Syrup will send him to the moon numbers wise.
He hasn't had a black since 7/15, but no one wants those at all.
Another early AM, but Lots of Greens!
Do Daa seems to be liking this 3.5U dose.
I know that you are using custom dosing, but are using more of the MPM (Modified Prozinc Method) guidelines, or are at least pretty close to that.
So while technically Do Daa did not earn a reduction per the MPM guidelines, I think you could try another dose reduction.
You edge awfully close to the < 50 mg/dL reduction threshold and need to feed gravy to bring Do Daa back up and keep him from dropping below 50, into the 40 BG range.
My thought is that Do Daa is actually ready for a reduction.
This morning's red BG level, the 446 screams "BOUNCING!!!!!!" to me.
So how do you feel about decreasing the dose to 3.25U?
p.s. My first thought was that I wasn't up late enough last night to answer your question. Better late than never I hope.
I usually log into the forum around 9-9:15pm EST. I honestly don't expect to get many if any real time advice, everyone's life it different.
I do believe that the 446 was partially due to the low of the 58, but also the gravy Finally, and I do mean Finally, catching up at 5am.
We did continue with the 3.5u dosage all day today and on his SS, he didn't slip below an 81 today... yet.
We don't have any issue Reducing him, do you think that it's still warranted given the Blues and mostly Greens today?
Yes, I do think that giving Do Daa a dose reduction is needed.
We will start the Reduction of 3.25u tomorrow AM.
Thank you very much for helping!
Goose, I look at the notes in the Remarks section on your SS too. Thank you very much for those by the way. It gives us a more complete picture. Wish more people would do those notes in the Remarks column.
So when I see that you are "front loading gravy" and giving him "6 temps" (temptations), to me that says the dose is too high.
You are welcome for the help, as always.
p.s. Still trying to clean up my kitchen. We had gusty winds go through, and it knocked out the power for a bit.
No power, no electricity to run the well pump, so no water, no flushing, no washing hands. Cat got the rest of the small can of Tiki Cat food so it would not spoil in the fridge. All is well with her world and mine. Temporary blip to the day.
It took me awhile to start adding in the notes into the Remarks area on the SS. I'm glad it's useful!
I figured someone here who happened to read my Remarks on the SS would understand the "front loading gravy" note, and I do abbreviate Temptations as Temps.
We barely had any rain or wind from the storms the blew through today, although 23k people lost power lower in the State.
Not strictly per the dosing protocol, but I would have reduced Do Daa after those lows in the 60's on 8/29.
The black today, 8/30/20 is a clear bounce situation.
You might want to consider a reduction to 3U soon.
We are currently going by the Reduction point of 50. Should it be upped to 60-65? (On the SS the numbers you point out are 62 - 64) We would like a Reduction point all can agree on, if it should be higher, than so be it. We want to be able to recognize it when we see it on the meter.
We don't mind giving him less, that is, after all the goal.
We can certainly start another Reduction again in the AM to 3u....
I'm trying to take some factors into consideration in recommending that higher reduction point. Namely, the fact that you have to "gravy him up" so frequently to bring the BG levels back up, your not wanting to shoot a BG that is <100, his lows (nadirs) at mid-cycle, etc.
If you do not agree with the higher reduction point, the 60-65 BG level, then don't do it. Simple as that.
Did you by any chance retest when you got that 600 at AMPS this morning 8/31/20? It's possible you had a bad test strip.
His blues and greens at mid-cycle are nice to see. Just wish you didn't keep propping up the numbers with the gravy as your first step, to bring the BG levels back up. His regular low carb food should be your first step, then the medium carb food, then the high carb food (the gravy).
p.s. By the way, Marje will be off the message board until at least October 1st. She sent a PM to some of us.
If your opinion is a higher reduction point of 60-65 then that is what we will do. We aren't going to shoot any lower than 100 or so because there is just no room for him to fall. We did not retest on 8/31/20 with the amps of 600, probably should have.
Having to "gravy him up" especially occurs with low numbers at night so we can sleep. So he's given the gravy to prop up the numbers because sometimes he just won't eat anything to maintain a given, safe level, this happens am and pm as I've remarked on the SS. There are times where the gravy is used for our convenience. (going somewhere and sleep)
Our 1st step is mostly always FF wet food & Dr. Elseys CleanProtien dry food when/if needed .. What is your suggestion for a wet Medium carb food from FF or Friskies? Gravy is used when he won't eat or we feel the numbers will be headed south like around amps/pmps +2 that will likely show what will happen at +4 and beyond and also for overnight if needed. Gravy is the fastest thing to get into him system besides syrup.
Thanks for your assistance!
A wet medium carb food. Fancy Feast and/or Friskies.
The Fancy Feast grilled in gravy line is medium carb, with most of those in the 12-15% range. the FF sliced in gravy line is also medium carb. Or FF marinated morsels in gravy.
It's the FF Gravy Lovers in gravy that are high carb, 15-20% carbs. Also the Delights with Cheddar in gravy are high carb.
Friskies medium carb foods include the Savory Shreds line, which are mostly 12-14% carbs. But the Whitefish & Sardines in Sauce is 18% so a high carb option.
Friskies Prime Fillets or the Tasty Treasures with Bacon are in the 13-14% carb range. Meaty Bits, and Saucesations by Friskies are all medium carb, 13-14%
Still going by the old food chart, to grab those carb percentages. https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf
Is that enough choices? There are more options, so look at the food chart to see.
Thank you for the suggestions. Do Daa is pretty much a pate only fella and it has taken a really long time to get him to eat any wet food at all. He's been a Dry addict most of his 12 years.
He still will only eat 90% of 1 FF can in a day and only a little over 1/3 of a cup of Clean protein (mostly for overnights). He has to have the FF virtually like runny pudding or he will not eat it at all. It's taken all year to get to where we are right now with him.
Puree some of those other foods in a blender? Or a food processor?
" p.s. By the way, Marje will be off the message board until at least October 1st. She sent a PM to some of us."
I wanted to respond to this also. I haven't seen Marje on the board lately and haven't spoken to her lately, however, she is an invaluable asset to this form and it's members and to us and we greatly appreciate all of the help Do Daa has received since joining.
Which "bad" other dry food does Do Daa like to eat?
(Your comment on the SS made me smile. Couldn't help it. You know what works for him.)
"Bad" is relative. We dropped the Friskies seafood sensations for all of the cats quite some time ago. The "bad" food, or worse than the Clean Protein, is Purina cat chow Naturals indoor dry food and it's what everyone else is eating. https://www.purina.com/cat-chow/dry-cat-food/naturals-indoor.
Glad the remarks are at least amusing!
Your thoughts on his 3u numbers?
He's doing ok on the 3U dose. Not fantastic, but ok. Hey, 3 months ago, Do Daa was on 4.5U, so he is doing better on the lower doses since then.
He still does those amazing drops and bounces, so I'm a bit hesitant to suggest a dose increase back to the 3.25U.
But I do think I'd recommend that you nudge the dose up again.
You may end up reducing it again very quickly.
But that is the way things go with insulin doses and a bouncy kitty.
40% carbs in that Purina cat chow Naturals indoor dry food, so no wonder it raises his BG levels and keeps them up for several days as it moves through his digestive system.
I used this carb calculator. http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html
Sometime closer to the weekend, we'll start on the 3.25u again, if only for a short time for Bouncy Daa. We are happy that he's needing less insulin, and the Zobaline seems to be making a difference. He is jumping up on chairs, the couch, and tables now! like he did before with much more alacrity than before, and it's only been a few weeks.
That particular dry food is used in extreme moderation only for him and is part of his "tool kit". We're still experimenting with it in conjunction with the gravy, both in relatively small amounts. Thank you for that link.
Reduced him to 2.75u this morning due to the 62 overnight/early AM. Guess we'll try that for a bit...
Do Daa is on the "going down elevator!"
Nice greens last night, 9/9/20 and a nice string of lower blues today 9/10/20 during the AM cycle.
Good work Goose, on lowering the dose.
Thank you! Yes, it's nice to see all that Green and Blue!
Hopefully he stays on that "going down elevator!" ... but he's played tricks before
He's still looking good on the 2.75U dose. Keep it "down" Do Daa!
p.s. New thread time Goose. Up to number 8 I think?
I hope he does!
New Thread #8 up and going.