Dry Food And TR Questions (moved from Think Tank)

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Beck and Philly, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. Beck and Philly

    Beck and Philly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2018
    I don't know if this is the right place for this, but it's been nagging at me. I had posted this in the Think Tank, but someone suggested it might be better here.

    I understand that TR and the related protocols were based on a wet food diet. For cats willing to eat a wet foot diet, that gives CG the option of following a more aggressive protocol than SLGS. I've followed TR with a previous kitty.

    Now that we have Dr. Elsey's and Young Again as options for cats who won't eat enough canned to sustain them, why does a very low carb dry diet exclude them from TR?

    Is there something specific only to dry food regardless of carb content that makes SLGS necessary or is the TR exclusion a leftover from the days when dry food low carb options weren't readily available?

    I want to give Philly a good chance at remission. I test frequently and am always home. Philly just won't hop on the wet food bus.
     
    jt and trouble (GA) likes this.
  2. JOJI and Kit

    JOJI and Kit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    i wonder if the fact that it takes longer to impact/digest is a reason?

    i'm sure experts will be along soon with a real answer ;)
     
    jt and trouble (GA) likes this.
  3. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    1) Yes, dry food metabolizes at a different rate than wet or raw.
    2) The research on TR was done with low carb wet and raw. There were no studies with dry food and TR. Since TR is a somewhat aggressive method, I wouldn't want to play with one of the variables.
     
  4. Tom & Thomas (GA)

    Tom & Thomas (GA) Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2018
    Wow, what a delightfully clear and concise answer. This belongs in the reference material about TR. It's always best when people understand the reasons behind a rule.

    At one point, I read through yards of Think Tank in search of answers to this question, and what @Wendy&Neko says here is precisely what I was able to extract. See especially posts 42, 43, 56, 58-61 in the Myths Debunked thread. Which include statements that dry food moves through the system more slowly and that its glycemic impact may be unpredictable.
     
  5. Heytherr

    Heytherr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    What is TR?
     
    Dusty & Roe likes this.
  6. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    TR is Tight Regulation, a scientifically published dosing protocol for Lantus and Levemir. More detail in the Dosing Methods Sticky Note over in the Lantus, Basaglar, Levemir forum.
     
    jt and trouble (GA) likes this.
  7. Tomlin

    Tomlin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2019
    :bighug:I want to give Philly a good chance at remission. I test frequently and amalways home. Philly just won't hopon the wet food bus.

    Hi there. I wanted to send a couple of additional ideas along given your situation with the dry food. One would be to get a Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) and that would allow the ability to gather the data necessary to be more aggressive with dosing safely even with your cat eating the dry food. It is best if you have a vet familiar with the CGM and who has used it this way so that they are able to partner with you. Another option, and you may have already have tried it without success, is to try a transition to wet food. This is one link to steps but there are many others if you Google “transitioning cats from dry food to wet food” (https://catinfo.org/docs/TipsForTransitioning1-14-11.pdf). An amazing internist said it best when he told me “you must learn to be more patient then your cat is stubborn”. Cats are naturally neophobic meaning most do not like change and are extremely skeptical when it comes to their food being changed whether it is the smell, texture &/or flavor. It is a slow process for some cats. My T is like that with changes—of any kind!

    Wishing you all the best and of course, remission :bighug:! Don’t give up!
     
  8. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    One thought about Philly and alternatives to dry food...

    Stella & Chewy's makes freeze dried raw food. ZiwiPeak also has an air dried raw formulation that looks like jerky style treats. They would both fit the TR model as they are raw food but have been dried.

    The biggest difference is that canned food has a high moisture content versus the dried varieties. Cats do not have a huge thirst drive. In the wild, they get most of their liquid from their prey. If you opt to try either of these foods, please make sure you're leaving plenty of water out and consider a water fountain for Philly if you think that will increase water consumption. The water issue iis also important for kidney health. Diabetes is hard on the kidneys. One of the best ways of helping on the kidney side of things is to get numbers under renal threshold (around 220 on a human meter) and to increasing hydration.
     
  9. Tomlin

    Tomlin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2019
    A friend of mine is feeding her cat the Smalls freeze dried raw and that is going well. In addition to Stella and Chewys, Rawz and Smalls also make freeze dried foods as well. My friends cat suddenly refused to eat the raw diet that was frozen and thawed out or any wet food, so she gave him the freeze dried in the meantime until she figures out what is going on.

    Please comment back if you try this :)! I would be curious how it goes. If Philly eats it you can add always try adding some bone broth or water to it and see if that may be another way to transition Philly to a wet diet.
     
  10. Beck and Philly

    Beck and Philly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2018
    About a month ago I stocked up on all of the freeze dried and frozen options one of our better pet food stores carry. Philly won't even taste the options. If I mix something new into his favorite foods, he leaves the room. If we offer fresh cooked chicken, he leaves. If he hears a can open when he's waiting in his food spot, he leaves. Sometimes after he's eaten his dry he will join the other cats at the wet food plates, but not reliably.

    I'm not giving up, but after two months, I want to do the best I can with what he will eat.

    I was concerned about the moisture, but Young Again has published information saying the foods that don't use plants as carbs do not cause the same issues as traditional dry. I'll try to attach the study.

    We have a large number of cats here. There are three water stations always filled and available.
     

    Attached Files:

    jt and trouble (GA) likes this.
  11. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Well, Philly is certainly single minde and is clearly giving you a message. Fundamentally, the best food for a cat is the food the cat will eat.. If it's matter of a VERY slow transition, you do what you have to do. Maybe Philly will see the error of his ways; maybe not. At least there are a couple of lower carb dry food options.
     
  12. Tomlin

    Tomlin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2019
    Maybe Philly and Tomlin are the same cat :banghead:! Tomlin will eat wet food but ONE food which is a huge issue for when he has any type of pancreatitis flare and does not want to eat it because he associates it with the flare. I am currently working on adding another food and it is a very, very, VERY slow process.

    As Sienne said, the best food is the one a cat will eat and sometimes the cat calls the shots ;)!

    There are a few things I can share from working with an amazing board certified nutritionist who is really dialed into cats that may help (may not, but worth a try!) One big take away was to NOT to mix the new food with the old food. For many cats, they don’t smell it as two options, old and new, but instead, an unusual, strange, new morphed food. Even putting the new food on a separate plate right next to the old food creates this same problem. Instead, try putting the new food 3 feet-ish or so away from the old food. Sounds kind of crazy, but it makes a big difference. The food smell is no longer morphed and they smell the new food as something completely separate. The other helpful hint is that the new food should be offered every time the old food is offered. This allows the cat to become familiar with the new food and they are more likely to try it. Again, neophobic by nature, if you can make it so that with time the food is not new, there is a better chance they will actually try it. Again, no guarantees, but these 2 steps make a difference. This may be tough with having multiple cats. Fortunately, we personally haven’t had issues yet with the others trying to take the food that is 3 feet or so away, but I can see where that could potentially be a problem in a multi cat household.

    I will read the article. Thank you for sharing it :bighug:! I always like new info!
     
  13. Tom & Thomas (GA)

    Tom & Thomas (GA) Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2018
    At one point, I had some luck with grinding up some Dr Elsey's kibble and sprinkling it on top of the wet food. Not ground to a powder, more like peppercorn size. And not stirred in, just left on top.

    Another possible topping is Orijin freeze-dried treats. The Original flavor is nice and crumbly. I still use this sometimes to add a bit of zest to mealtime.
     
    jt and trouble (GA) and Tomlin like this.
  14. Beck and Philly

    Beck and Philly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2018
    I'm sorry! I missed this comment after you took the time to send such a thorough reply. You're right about not mixing especially when it comes to mixing dry and wet. Philly isn't thrilled when I change his dry food, but after a brief hesitation he will accept any dry. If I use his dry to top wet food as an enticement, though, he won't touch it. Lately he has joined my other cats at the wet food plates, though. So my other cats are happy that they get wet food twice a day now in Hope's that Philly joins the party.
     
  15. Dusty & Roe

    Dusty & Roe Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Just wanted to ask how is Philly with boiled or roasted chicken ? Just a curious question .
     
  16. Beck and Philly

    Beck and Philly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2018
    He won't touch it.
     
    jt and trouble (GA) likes this.
  17. Tomlin

    Tomlin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2019
    I swear my T and Philly should meet! They are hold outs and super skeptical! I finally got Tomlin to eat the Nom Nom Now Chicken :p! I purchased some Stella and Chewys morsels for another one of my cats and after eating a little one time, he decided the second time he wasn’t eating it again. Out of pure curiosity, I offered it to T and he loved it so then I thought what if I put a small tablespoon on the Nom Nom? He immediately ate it. Dumb luck!

    I agree with you and am very hopeful that maybe having all that wet food out so he can smell it will make it more familiar and he will eventually try it. It is so hard when there is an underlying medical issue. There is a limit to how much you can push them with hunger drive sometimes when you have to balance it with diabetes or another diagnosis. I totally get it! Best of luck. Sending eat the wet food vibes your way :bighug:
     
    Beck and Philly likes this.
  18. Tomlin

    Tomlin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2019
    Try different brands as well. Just another crazy thing I discovered with my super picky T...he won’t touch certain brands of lean organic chicken breast OR organic ground chicken. He definitely prefers the ground chicken because as you may guess, even if lean, it often contains more fat in it than the chicken breast. He will actually eat one ground chicken vs another brand despite it being the same % lean—we can clearly tell when we cook it that one has more fat than the other! You can guess which one T prefers :cool:!
     
  19. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    HA! Neither will Zoe! What is wrong with these cats and foods? :rolleyes::p:banghead:
     
    Beck and Philly likes this.

Share This Page