Panic June 2nd PMPS 318

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thank you Tanya and Ducia -- for the housekeeping procedure, I had used a different method when I had an unusually low AMPS, I like yours better
and heaps of thanks for being there, giving her (and me) good advice and support
 
I will do that now - I am still trying to figure out how to customize them to give all the necessary info, like late dosages and different meters. I suppose I have 2.5 hours now to work on them! I don't find you being stuffy at all, I appreciate your advice!

Speaking of which, does anyone know a good method for posting if you alternate a meter for a test? Like if just once you use a different meter, is there a simple way to show that aside from remarks?
 
Panic said:
Should I only do a +2.5 test? Also why that time and not sooner or later?
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the lowest Blue number occurred in the past on 4Uwas +4. Earlier test like +2.5 could reveal the downward movement and thus signal an active cycle. In such cases a little LC food slows down the drop and helps leveling the cycle. Yes, the food throughout the day will keep BG a bit up but it is better BC it enables you to keep a good dose for longer creating an opportunity for the Pancreas to heal whilst in good low Blue or Green.
YOu see, the fast drops - like the one you had May 13th, AM cycle +5 199 - +7 73 - often trigger the bounce. Since you do not know what exactly going on at night then it is legit to guess that she goes lower and then bounces during AM cycle.
Let's wait until you have next number.
Does it make sense?
 
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got a coupon in the mail for Chewy -- 15% off if you buy $49 -- then checked retailmenot, coupon code there is 25HH8GDS -- another site lists a code of 15CHEWY -- price for the FF 30 pack poultry/beef at local WM is 17.88 plus local tax 10.1% -- Chewy (at least today) 17.64
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
YOu see, the fast drops - like the one you had May 13th, AM cycle +5 199 - +7 73 - often trigger the bounce. Since you do not know what exactly going on at night then it is legit to guess that she goes lower and then bounces during AM cycle.
Let's wait until you have next number.
Does it make sense?
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Oh! I did not know that! That makes sense, thank you for explaining.

CandyH and Catcat said:
got a coupon in the mail for Chewy -- 15% off if you buy $49 -- then checked retailmenot, coupon code there is 25HH8GDS -- another site lists a code of 15CHEWY -- price for the FF 30 pack poultry/beef at local WM is 17.88 plus local tax 10.1% -- Chewy (at least today) 17.64
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Oh so you buy in bulk to hit that $49 mark? That's smart haha. Every time I try those retailmenots I get expired coupons :eek:
 
what Tanya said !!! ;):D -- we're bouncing on vetsulin too, likely for same reason, only ours is the kiddie roller coaster and you have the Six Flags version

using two meters -- what I did was set up a separate spreadsheet for tests with different meter -- in my case it was vet's tests with her AlphaTrak versus mine at home with ReliOn-- but I like Tanya's solution better, keeps all your info on one sheet
 
LOL Candy we are indeed Six Flags right now!!

Vetcurve SS makes sense though, considering it's always going to be a different meter and stress levels are higher but yeah, swapping between two different meters at home makes the SS look muddy >.< Definitely wasn't my intention, but what can you do when you run out!
 
Panic said:
Oh! I did not know that! That makes sense, thank you for explaining.



Oh so you buy in bulk to hit that $49 mark? That's smart haha. Every time I try those retailmenots I get expired coupons :eek:
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lots of different things to buy at Chewy to get that $49 to trigger the coupon -- no-carb treats, food, supplies, they even have vetsulin! also a better price on the Nutri-Vet paw gel which Catcat loves and which seems to help both hairballs and urinary health (he's part Siamese, and Siamese neuters often have crystals, blockages, etc)

I would give you the code off the coupon I have, but I intend to use it, betcha there are others on the board who got the same mailer, maybe with a different code
 
CandyH and Catcat said:
lots of different things to buy at Chewy to get that $49 to trigger the coupon -- no-carb treats, food, supplies, they even have vetsulin! also a better price on the Nutri-Vet paw gel which Catcat loves and which seems to help both hairballs and urinary health (he's part Siamese, and Siamese neuters often have crystals, blockages, etc)

I would give you the code off the coupon I have, but I intend to use it, betcha there are others on the board who got the same mailer, maybe with a different code
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Catcat has Siamese in him? I wouldn't have guessed! O:
No worries, I'm pretty sure we get those Chewy postcards in the mail - I'm sure one is still laying around with those "X amount off your first order" codes xD
 
for what it's worth, if you look at Catcat's spreadsheet, he seems to hit nadir somewhere between +4 and +5 -- typical of vetsulin -- though if he's bouncing, the nadir isn't really obvious -- and it can occur a little bit earlier or possibly later, by +6 he's on the rise (and I quit giving him spoons of food then too) -- however, sing the chorus -- ECID --

clues to Siamese heritage, his paws are oval not round -- and if you heard him meow, or yowl, no brainer
 
his presumed sibling, Mia, had the delicate female Siamese body type, a tabby-tortie calico with golden eyes, but she escaped through the dog door as soon as she figured out how to climb the stacked baby gates blocking the stairs (protecting new adoptees from husky/lab mix), stayed in the outbuildings for awhile, then wandered over to my friend's house a quarter mile away, took up with Peaches, the resident blue-cream tortie there, for awhile, then ????

typical contentious siblings, would not share food dish, water dish, nor litter box

we figure they were the offspring of a tortie-with-white medium to longhair, and an applehead Siamese or Siamese mix -- Catcat has, not an ascot nor bib, but an irregular white patch where a gentleman might wear a pocket handkerchief -- his fur is almost Balinese-like (wonderfully silky), but his tail is smooth and fairly sleek
 
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Panic said:
+2.5 test was 486, no change it seems. She did get at least a partial fur shot though.
I have food out but she's not hungry right now.
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Thank you!

I think it is ok for you to leave. Ask you brother to put out a dish for her with a little -maybe 2-3 teaspoons of food out in a couple of hours and to watch her symptoms - if she became very hungry then feed he.

It is possible that she will go lower later on. When can be home to take test?

I'll try to check in around your PM. When exactly it is and what is your time zone? I am in PST zone.

You SS looks perfect!:cool:
Well done (although I wish we had the PM tests too).
 
Thank you! Yes I'm sorry about no PMs, I didn't get one in last night because she had eaten within 2 hours of shot and she's always been high enough...what should I do if she ends up with food in her system two hours prior to shooting?

I am EST, so three hours ahead of you! I will be back around 7 which is 5 hours from now :) Gotta run now, but thank you!
 
I want to apologize for innumerate grammar mistakes and typos.
My old Vista PC no longer likes me typing. Keeps freezing. Sigh.
Getting back to correct it all takes forever.
I'll be posting as it is; sorry.

A few things: we used to trim Ducia short but very dense fur down a little with my hubby's ols beard timmer - it helped a lot with reducing furshots. Warning: not all cats like being trimmed along their bellies - use caution and an assistant.

Get some variety of carby foods - like FF Gravy Lovers or Grilled - all good MC gravy , good for steerin the low BG up in no time. Very cheap.

Walmart brand Relion sells Relion Keto Sticks for less than $7.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
A few things: we used to trim Ducia short but very dense fur down a little with my hubby's ols beard timmer - it helped a lot with reducing furshots.
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That's a good idea, but I'm able to shoot her without complaint in just about any area of the body, so she'd be all patchy if I did all the areas LOL. My MAIN issue (well, two, I switched her to U100s and it's a lot easier again) is her mats in her fur...she always had very nice un-matted fur pre-diabetes, and I was very particular to getting them out as soon as I spotted any. But after she got very, very sick and was essentially laying outside in her own diarrhea and in the woods she got pretty bad. I've been slowly working away at them for weeks. Once I get all those pesky things off it will be so much easier, because right now sometimes I'll shoot thinking it's skin but it was just a mat!

Update for everyone: +8.5 she is at 377 on Alphatrak. Managed to pick up both some Relion strips (they said they were out of stock but I FOUND some) and the last box of ketone strips! She ate a bit when I got home but doesn't seem too interested.
 
better to look patchy than to endure fur shots -- if she's matted like that, I'd be tempted to get kindergarten scissors (with the rounded blunt tips) and cut the mats out, surely that would be easier than trying to comb or brush them out -- and as a bonus, you'd have visible skin from underneath

as the hairdresser at the salon keeps telling me, it WILL grow back ..

too bad the detangler sprays for kids aren't safe for cats .. you could try coconut oil as a "conditioner" -- I found it was easier to part Catcat's fur to get down to skin, if I smoothed a little olive oil on the fur first -- probably helped with the dry skin/dandruff he's getting over
 
Panic said:
+8.5 she is at 377 on Alphatrak.
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This is great!
If she is hungry try to get by by very little LC snacks. She might be around or past her nadir and food will shorten the duration of the dose.

Your shot time is off for over an hour tonight.
Have you decided when will you shoot?
With Vetsulin you can be a bit more flexible than with Lantus which 12x12h strictly.
 
You are totally right Candy. XD I have actually already cut out all the mats I could, the rest are just too close to the skin to be cutting on. I'm really upset that I misplaced my small greyhound comb - it was perfect for her and I never lose things but it's vanished! Maybe I should just get a new one. You know I totally forgot about that coconut oil trick though, I need to try that!!

That is good to know, thank you Tanya! That is a good question...we're actually two hours off schedule, she usually gets her shot at 9:30. I suppose I could aim for 10:30, maybe that will give her some wiggle room if she decides not to eat enough? If I've read right you can do it an hour early on Vetsulin but for my personal schedule it won't hurt if she goes later.
 
Panic said:
You are totally right Candy. XD I have actually already cut out all the mats I could, the rest are just too close to the skin to be cutting on. I'm really upset that I misplaced my small greyhound comb - it was perfect for her and I never lose things but it's vanished! Maybe I should just get a new one. You know I totally forgot about that coconut oil trick though, I need to try that!!

That is good to know, thank you Tanya! That is a good question...we're actually two hours off schedule, she usually gets her shot at 9:30. I suppose I could aim for 10:30, maybe that will give her some wiggle room if she decides not to eat enough? If I've read right you can do it an hour early on Vetsulin but for my personal schedule it won't hurt if she goes later.
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How about keeping your current schedule 9:30AM/PM? I mean if it fits.
A day may come when you have the"low numbers event" ,let's say at your +4 or +6 - and that's too late on the EST and CST, and no one maybe on to help.There are very few PST folks, I am one of them and I rarely online. I remember well how much help I needed at the beginning and being able to access help on time might be a good point to consider for your for the shot time.

If it safe to give Vetsulin 2 h earlier, of course.

If you are able to stay up and monitor tonight (in case you don't have to go to work tomorrow) and to interfere with higher carbs if too low I think you can shoot at the usual time of 9:30sh or 10pm/10 am.

Do you have anyone on VetsulinForum to ask about safety/merit of shooting early?
@Panic
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
"Small portions better for diabetics and slow down drops preventing future bouncing.
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I am going back through the thread and re-reading everyone's posts for helpful tips I might have overlooked in the stress of this morning and this caught my eye - I understand most of use free feed or give multiple meals during the day. Personally (aside from today!) I give Panic an entire can for breakfast, maybe another 1/3 for her +1.5 meal, and then snacks of about 1/4 throughout the day until dinnertime. She eats at least a can a day in snacks alone. Weight isn't a problem because we are trying to get it up (currently 4 lbs). Is the 1 whole can for breakfast not a good idea?

In response to your message just now - I can't confirm 2 hours early, I was just looking the other day to see any approved wiggle room but can't seem to find any aside from 1 hour. It's already 9:30 where I'm at so that won't work anyway haha. I could set down some food and try to shoot at 10 though. That is a good point for timezones too, I hadn't thought of that. I don't have to work until tomorrow afternoon - what times post evening shot would be ideal for testing?
 
Panic said:
I could set down some food and try to shoot at 10 though.
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ok, then 10 or10:30, up to you. Post the preshot here - I'll check in by then.

The +8.5 read was promising. I hope she'll give you nice preshot.
Are you able to stay up tonight and monitor starting at +2 or +3?
How is her appy? Is she willing to eat, interested?
 
I shot an hour and a quarter early on the 29th, had to do so because of meeting someone at the airport -- at least for Catcat, the vetsulin seems to peter out about +9 - +10 -- didn't seem to upset things, pretty much normal -- the +4 was actually about the same time of night as the +3s showing on the spreadsheet

after some advice I got, I started feeding Catcat at least a little bit every hour for the first six, then nothing until PMPS time -- BG level is already rising at +6, (1 PM Pacific) and he usually naps during the afternoon anyway (gets warm here in the loft) -- gets active again when he notices us starting dinner so sometimes we get a little ahead and do the PMPS mini-meal-and-test a few minutes before 6:30 pm -- PM shoot scheduled at 7

I tend to increase the amount a bit around +4, over what I give at +1,2,3 -- since he hits nadir then or just after that, the LC carbs may keep the BG from totally bottoming out

re - mats - I watched the hairdresser working on hair, for getting it really short, she slid a comb next to skin, snipped or clipped above that so she wouldn't catch skin -- if you have a flea comb or very skinny comb, you could slide that under mat, align scissors above it and parallel to skin, snip, snip .. might that work?

still worried, OCD, newbie, west coast time, I'm often on -- SOME day I'll get back to Farm Town and let the rest of the family members have the computer back too
 
Panic said:
Personally (aside from today!) I give Panic an entire can for breakfast, maybe another 1/3 for her +1.5 meal, and then snacks of about 1/4 throughout the day until dinnertime.
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to be clear: dinner time = Preshot meal at PM, about half an hour before shot?
Panic said:
Weight isn't a problem because we are trying to get it up (currently 4 lbs)
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4 pounds? Or is it a typo?
 
Another question:
Panic said:
I give Panic an entire can for breakfast, maybe another 1/3 for her +1.5 meal, and then snacks of about 1/4 throughout the day until dinnertime. She eats at least a can a day in snacks alone
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what size of the can?
If the small ones 2.5 - 3 oz than she needs more, especially to gain weight. Most FF comes in small cans.
Ducia, a petite size indoor only cat (low activity) ate one and half 5.5 oz can of fatty, 180+Kcal/ can a day - split throughout 24 h and gained nicely with time. If Panic goes out (to hunt I presume) she needs even more calories a day than that.
@Panic
 
Ooh that's a really good idea with the haircut suggestion! I wonder if I can get any extra mats out that way.
Hm you're right tho, maybe I should cut back a bit on the larger meals to keep her going longer.

And that is not a typo Tanya, we are REALLY struggling with her weight. She had went from 8ish to 5 lbs shortly before diagnosis and has hovered in the lower 4.1-4.3 area ever since. The scale I have isn't terribly accurate either, it might say she's 5 lbs but then I take her to the vet and she's 4.3. And yes, dinner time is the pre-shot meal!

Her test just now was 318! Safe for 4u?
 
Yes, they're the 3oz cans. So 9oz minimum a day. My vet spoke with a nutritionist about her weight and they ended up recommending (I have a breakdown on the calories per can and what she needs, etc.) 3 cans of 3oz Fancy Feast plus 1/8 cup dry (this was back when she was on DM dry too, it was recommended still because it'd be more calories for her). I ran out of the dry a couple weeks ago, no biggie anyway because she wouldn't eat it.
 
Panic said:
Her test just now was 318! Safe for 4u?
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has she eaten alright?
Will she be willing to eat again at +1.5 as you usually feed her?

If yes to both ? - I would shoot - provided that you will be able to test at +2 or +3 and then probably more if numbers go lower.
 
She's almost had half a can of 3oz - just caught the dog eating the other half UGH so had to get out a new can.
I think if I take up food right after the shot and don't offer her any more until +1.5 she might be interested. She's still acting wishy-washy about whether she's hungry or not.

I probably won't get any sleep tonight anyway so testing shouldn't be a problem.
 
Panic said:
3 cans of 3oz Fancy Feast
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If you feed Fancy Feast (FF) which are average about 85Kcal a 3 oz can then =it's 255 a day. It would suffice a non active cat like Ducia and help her to gain but if Panic goes out and burns a lot of calories by hunting or playing or chasing then she'll need more. Probably another 100 Kcal a day. Will she eat more if offered?
 
Excluding today's scenario yes, she'd eat me out of house and home if she could. It's very hot where we live though so when she goes outside she just chills under the cars or porch, she definitely isn't burning any of the calories unless she's bee-lining for the food bowl.

Her NORMAL (pre-diabetic) appetite is more of a grazer though, she always left quite a bit of her meal for later. Maybe take six bites and be done.
 
FF can -- which one, the 3 ouncer or the 5.5 one?

Catcat was emaciated at diagnosis, 10 pounds when "normal" for him would be 14 to 15 -- he's up to about 12.5 now, seems to be holding steady even with "more calories than normal for his weight" -- his two 5.5 ouncers come about 180-220 calories/can, one FF 3 ouncer about 90-100, plus he gets up to 4 dry sardines a day (5 calories/fish) and a good sized pinch of bonito flakes after each test (4 calories per .2 oz) -- plus ~ 1/2 teaspoon extra virgin olive oil twice a day with 1/4 capsule --dumped into food - of turmeric .. he's an indoor/outdoor cat so supposedly 25 calories per target weight (325 if my math is right) -- getting around 400 calories but not getting fat, instead is putting on muscle near backbone, still has a caved-in waist, wanders around our 1-1/3 acre lot plus goes over to neighbors, does some hunting
 
Panic said:
she'd eat me out of house and home if she could.
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good, I hope she'll gain once the BG is better controlled.
If you feel ok about testing and posting here go ahead. I'll be checking your numbers here.

I like the idea of eating again at +1.5!
You see, it is closer in time to what I think might be her nadir - between +5 and +8, further testing will pin point it better with time. And having "fresh carbs" on board might prevent fast drops and smooth the curve. Solid wet foods take ("average") 30 - 60 min to hit the bloodstream and take an effect on BG. Dry takes longer and stays longer in affecting the BG even when the food itself had left the body.

Make sure you update the SS.
Panic's PMPS 318 @+11 (it is 11 hourse since the last injection, right?).
Good number!
 
Do they make 5.5oz FF cans?

Yeah before she was officially diagnosed my vet commented she didn't have much muscle...my parents both commented they're glad she has long hair because she'd look hideous otherwise with how bony she feels. The vet has the FF cans down as 99/cal a can. I do give her egg yolks every once in a while too, that's what, 70 cal right there? Panic mainly preferred staying outside (we got a new house on our property and she did NOT like the change) but after diagnosis and her learning that all the food was inside, she'd rather sit in the kitchen all day. When I do make her go out she stays near the door lol. She's 11 now, and while my other 11 year old cat will mosey about and occasionally wrestle with the younger cats, Panic just isn't very playful in general. For a long time she would spend all day every day in the front yard under our old convertible, she'd only come out when I told her it was dinnertime xD

---

Yes, I really hope once we get under control she'll start putting that weight back where it belongs! I'm going to bring up Prozinc again with my vet this week.
I will try to get those tests in for you! Panic's been a good sport about all the poking today. I'm going to write all that info about dry/wet food hitting so I can reference it later, that's very helpful.

Yes thank you for the reminder! Gotta stop gabbing and get some work done xD
 
I think it'll be good to change the title as the subject has totally changed.
The short, easy one , something like "Panic 02/06 PMPS 318" should be ok and more up to the moment.

The current weight of 4 lb is IMHO deserves to be included into your signature block.
It might have bearings on dosing.

I am glad you are going to see the vet ,that weight is certainly very worrying. Poor baby!
I do hope she has good cycle and her healing can begin!
 
me too -- I'll be here off and on until roughly 10 pm west coast time, that's +3 for Catcat, and I usually test then to make sure he's not about to dive during the night -- already so short on sleep that I'd not survive an all nighter -- don't like to think of myself as an old lady but I'm more of a stewing hen than a spring chicken (greatgrandmotherhood will do that to you)
 
would be much easier if Catcat didn't wake us up before 5 AM wanting food !
--that would be +10 and his AMPS is always high (with one startling exception)
in best of all possible worlds, I'd get an AMPS soon after, but hypoglycemic me needs latte (milk with coffee flavoring) to cure the shakes and wake the brain
DH is much more of a morning person -- he goes downstairs and brings it up for me (also brings the vetsulin from the fridge)
I'm lucky to get an AMPS between 6 and 6:30 -- lucky too that Catcat doesn't claw the bathroom cabinet to shreds, trying to reach wall cabinet holding food
 
I think I'm right there with you...I feel exhausted. +2 was 519. Is that a bounce?
 
I did, she ate maybe 1/4 can of 3oz FF?
If it is a bounce maybe I need to feed her sooner than +1.5 ...?
 
Panic said:
I did, she ate maybe 1/4 can of 3oz FF?
If it is a bounce maybe I need to feed her sooner than +1.5 ...?
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No it is not a bounce it the "food bump" - a temporary BG elevation caused by the food eaten at +1.5.
The result shows you how high she goes on this food at this amount. You can use the data for the future.

I apologize - I should have told you to test at +3 instead of +2 if you were going to feed, or to test at +2 if there were no foods between preshot meal and +2. My mistake.

If it was a bounce I would wish you both good night right now. But I am not sure it is a bounce. You can either take a test at +4 - whithout food influence, or you can set an alarm and test at +5 or +6. It is about typical Vetsulin nadir time and you may catch her lower.

ETA: any nightly data is going to be tremendous help.
 
for that matter could be a combination of both -- these are extraordinary circumstances -- not what you'd usually do

can't really give advice, merely tell you what I do -- (in the evening)
between the PS mini meal/treat and the actual meal at shoot time, Catcat gets a reasonable amount of food, say 2/3 to 3/4 of a 5.5 can
then a heaping tablespoon of food at +1 and +2 -- if I feed him more, he'll pig out on it
this is a small enough helping that it doesn't affect the later test greatly -- just slows the fast-acting insulin down a hair

if I could, I would put off the test until +4 but that's pushing 11 pm and I'm tired and shaky, so he gets a slightly bigger helping (1/3 of a FF can or 3-4 tablespoons of a larger can, plus the no-carb treats because that's when I test for the night .. if it's unusually low I know I'll have to follow up later (so far hasn't happened)

from my own experience as tending towards hypoglycemia myself, I know I need to eat some protein about every 3 hours
cats' metabolism is about double mine
so small meals every hour to hour and a half, helps keep the body more stable, less highs, less lows
this also encourages pancreas, if it's functioning at all, to release small amounts of insulin more frequently
may "train" the liver not to dump scads of glycogen in as a "lifesaving" measure, if the BG is more stable
(that's what a bounce is, the liver is pulling stored glucose out and dumping into bloodstream) == simplifying it but that's what we understand)

and as you can see from the spreadsheet, I'm still chasing the correct dose -- enough that he gets into the lower blues if possible, not so much that he hits nadir in the middle greens (at least for now) -- maybe later we can lead him towards more green, less blue, only occasional yellow

and I'm at +4 -- actually a few minutes late, gotta do the test, then because Im having trouble keeping eyes from drifting shut, I will leave with the very best of wishes
 
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Does food really bump that high? Wow. It's okay, no worries, we learned about the food increase at least.

Candy, if/when you have time, would you be willing to give a breakdown of meal-times and amounts you do for Catcat since he's also on Vetsulin? I'm always unsure about snack times and there don't seem to be too many others here on such a harsh insulin.

I think I'm just going to call it a night...we're both pretty beat, rough day for us both. Thanks you two for checking in on us so late.
 
Panic said:
Does food really bump that high? Wow.
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it could be food bump plus bounce beginning. But yes, some cats do get high food spikes.

318 the PMPS is Pink on AlphaTrack but Relion would give you high Yellow, which is nice but also the lowest as of late number, lower than the majority of recent numbers. Panic could be bouncing from that, as she perceives it, "low" number. She'll get past and won;t bounce as bad with time. Ducia did.

If you are tired of course then do go to bed.
It's only if you are not sleeping around +4 - +6 by a chance take a quick test - it'll tell much more about the dose.
 
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