? Shooting in the PM

Does anyone else have a problem shooting the regular dose in the pm. Every day KitKat numbers are high in the morning because his numbers are lower in the pm and I am afraid to shoot his regular dose it is 1 unit. Because by pm his numbers are lower and then I get scared to shoot 1 unit and I wonder if I am feeding him too much. He is not eating dry, mostly Friskies pate and carb numbers are between 4-5. I most of the time give him a little more than 1/2 can Friskies and with FF I give him the whole can. At this time he weighs 10lbs, but he weighed 15 lbs and his vet put him on a diet trying to halt the diabetes. He is very skinny right now, because he is a very big cat, so he is hungry a lot and we have not got his diabetes under control. I do not know exactly how much to feed him.

 

Hi @Teresa & Buddy, I am setting up a spreadsheet for Kitkat and once we have Kitkat's numbers, we will be better placed to help you. I don't have experience with Prozinc, but I will tag @Suzanne & Darcy and @Bron and Sheba (GA) to help you once the SS is up and ready.

Weight loss is one of the symptoms of unregulated diabetes. Unregulated diabetic cats cannot process their food which is why they are always starving and lose weight despite eating so much. Once their blood sugar is brought under control, the symptoms disappear and they slowly start to regain weight.

Does he get 1.5 cans of Friskies pates in a day?

 

Hi Teresa, I can see KitKat’s SS ( thanks Bhooma).
Looking forward to seeing some of the data in the SS.
Are you feeding him snacks during the day and evening as well as the 2 main meals?

 

I have been feeding him snacks of a couple or 3 small spoon fulls of fancy feast. He bottomed out on me last night and Wed night with a dose of 1 unit of ProZinc. I gave him last night for his meal FF grilled chicken and gravy because it has 12 carbs. For a snack I gave him FF chicken which has 3 carbs. And it took another can of FF grilled chicken & gravy to keep him up. I have not had much sleep the last 2 nights.

 

Yes, or cans of FF. His vet put him on a trying to keep him from being diabetic. This went on for several months. But, I know he is unregulated and that keeps him from gaining weight.

 

Should he get 1.5 cans a day.

 

What is a dose of .75 insulin and how do you find it.

 

A dose of 0.75 I think is estimated by trying to get the plunger halfway between a dose of 0.5U (a half unit) and 1.0 U. Did someone tell you to give a 0.75U dose?

 

No, it seems 1 unit is too much for him, but .50 is not enough.

 

Hopefully @Bron and Sheba (GA) or @Suzanne & Darcy csn help you find a good dose. I didn’t look, were you able to put any of kitkat’s numbers into her spreadsheet? Do you have any questions about how to do it?

edit: I think Bron is in Australia so may not be on for awhile—it is lunch time there I think. It’s 6:25 am in India but I know people will look in on you once they’re online

 

I am trying to feed kit kat and give him a shot. I am trying to find some thing to eat myself. I doubt that I get anything done tonight. I have not got much sleep the last 2 nights.

 

Im sorry —I hope it’s better soon.

 

How is he faring as far as his weight is concerned? Does he need to lose weight? Gain weight?

I hope you are able to get some sleep tonight!

 

Teresa -

Many of us will not offer suggestions about dosing without benefit of current blood glucose numbers. It would be very helpful if you could provide some data.

If KitKat is under weight, feed your kitty!! You're correct that if she's unregulated, it will be hard for her to keep her weight at a good range. I'm also curious why your vet thought that weight loss would address the diabetes. It can. However, from your signature it looks like your kitty had a partial pancreatectomy. If anything is having an impact on KitKat's diabetes, it's the fewer than needed insulin producing cells in your cat's pancreas.

 

It’s a little confusing right now as her paperwork gets sorted but Buddy had the partial pancreatectomy. I think some numbers will get posted today, she’s a bit overwhelmed/sleep deprived and tech is a bit challenging but she’s hoping for your help

edit: Kit Kat is current cat

 

I think she meant before the diabetes he’d been put on a diet to lose weight , hoping to decrease his risk—and since then developed dm and lost weight. And is now under weight and she needs to know how much to feed him

 

Buddy, is the 1 who has a pancreatectomy and he is GA. I am trying to get a new signature for Kit Kat. I took Kit Kat to his vet, the vet said KitKat had glucose in his urine. I don't know about cats, but with people I have heard that if they would lose weight they would not be diabetic. I am feeding him, morning, night and sometimes in between a snack. Bandits Mom is trying to set up a signature for KitKat and SS.

 

KitKat is to skinny, Part of it is from the diet he was on and

I think he needs to gain weight, but he was too heavy before. Kit Kat is a really big cat and he weighted 15 lbs before the diet.

 

When he was put on a diet were you told how much he should weigh? Knowing his target weight determines how much to feed him. I hope you got some sleep.

 

Good job on filling in the spreadsheet

 

Teresa
This is one source I found about calculating how many calories to feed and it seemed the easiest to follow:
https://www.petplace.com/article/cats/pet-health/how-to-calculate-your-cats-daily-calorie-intake#:~:text=The calculation is 149 calories,268 calories to gain weight.

If he was 15# and that was too much per your vet did he say what Kit Kat should weigh? At any rate you say he is 10 pounds now and needs to gain weight?

based on what you’ve said, a ten pound cat needs about 220 calories a day just to maintain weight. To gain weight would be 396 (one online calculator I found said 286 which is a lot less so I’m going to keep searching and maybe someone else here will chime in)

senior cats need extra calories above that to gain weight, as do diabetic cats that aren’t controlled. Most things I read said it’s best to divide those calories over four meals or more gradually increasing portion size (I assume to prevent vomiting from gorging on a huge meal)

if I know a target weight that would help. If you know how many calories per can I can do the math for how many cans he needs

 

I found this calculator. You can fill in Kit Kats weight and his body score (there’s a chart of how skinny or fat he is to tell you the number) and it will calculate how much he should eat and how much he should ideally weigh

https://www.purinainstitute.com/centresquare/mer-calculator-for-cats


To make the chart appear click on the red “purina body condition for cats” and a pop up appears with the chart”

 

Hi Teresa! Doses are not based on the preshot numbers but on how low a dose is taking your kitty. With ProZinc we do sometimes have to take into consideration the preshot BG values, but only if they are much lower than we have information about— a number lower than we have seen before. I am not sure what a “1 small” means. If you would like to try the .75 unit dose (where you draw the insulin to halfway in between the 1/2 unit mark and the 1 unit mark) then please hold that dose for 7 days unless KitKat drops below 90 (I am using SLGS reduction point of 90 here as KitKat is new to ProZinc and we should give SLGS a chance before moving to the Modified ProZinc Method.) please record as many tests as you can (within reason- as you need to take care of yourself also). At least get both preshot tests and one or two mid-cycle tests. If numbers are low, you will know to test more and to intervene with carbs if necessary. What is Kit Kat eating? Eating multiple small meals during each 12 hour cycle is important — usually given before nadir/during the first half of the cycle. I am confused by the notes on your spreadsheet about food and carbs. If you are transitioning to lower carb foods then we would want to be extra careful with dosing as lower carbs will reduce BG numbers and generally will reduce insulin requirements. Are you testing for ketones at home? If ketones are present, that would also ter my recommendations.

 

I think she mentioned in an earlier post that those are the % carbs in those foods and she’s feeding those food/noting in her SS because she is trying to keep Kit Kats BG up at that point (if that makes sense)

 

Kit Kat was eating Royal Canin Glycobalance wet And dry. I started feeding him Friskies & FF on 11/26 in the pm. Also on that date he dropped down to 77 in the pm. I believe i only gave him 1/2 a can of friskies on that date. Boohma, said he should he getting 1 1/2 cans of Friskies a day. He had been starving, but last night and this morning he ate most of his food but not all of it. If I am feeding FF for a meal should he get 1 or 2 cans. If you look on Kit Kats SS on 12/5 in the pm he came down to 64 and I had to give a whole can of FF grilled chicken & gravy to get his numbers up. On that same date I had already fed him 1 can of FF grilled chicken & gravy which has 12 carbs and given him a snack of FF chicken feast. On 12/4 I gave him Friskies Mixed Grill, I am not for sure whether it was 1/2 can to 3/4 of a can in the am and he came down to 45. On that time he came up by me feeding him 2 teaspoons of FF grilled chicken & gravy. On 12/5 he needed more food. I don't know why I thought if they took a dive like he has 3 times that it was alright on the next shot to take a lower dose. I am unsure whether to give him 1 unit, or 75. A lot of times he will be high in the mornings and I think maybe it was a bounce, but Kit Kat has problems with his back legs, I have been giving him B 12. I do not want him to go to low or go to high. I really need to get him under control. I am testing for ketones, there is a few things I remember From Buddy, but not everything. I can not go back to what Buddy ate, because Buddy had severe chronic pancreatitis and I was doing good to get him to eat.

 

Teresa I think Bhooma asked you if you were feeding him 1 and 1/2 cans, not telling you that’s what he should be eating. I’m worried he may not be getting enough food—I can’t tell how many calories he’s being fed from your posts.

on the can it should say how many calories per can. Do you see that? If you can’t, could you tell me the names of the food you feed each day and how many ounces per can?

I’m going to try to look up the food you mentioned to see if I can figure out the calories without you looking but if you can, please look on the cans of what you feed for calories per can.

did the vet give you a weight he thought Kit Kat should be? I know 15 pounds was too much and 10 pounds is too little. Did he say a weight he should weigh?

 

Teresa please tell me all of the food you are feeding Kit Kat—not just what you give him if he’s low, but all of the food. Preferably not just the brand (like “Friskies” or “fancy feast”) but also the whole name like FF chicken feast classic pate or FF chopped grill pate etc.

From what I can find on line these fancy feast cans have only70-90 calories per can at most. Kit Kat probably needs 4-5 cans per day but I’m guessing because I don’t know what he should weigh and I don’t know what exactly you are feeding. It could be he needs more or less. It’s very important he get enough calories every day.

 

I weighed myself today and then weighed him the 1St time he weighed 10 lbs, I weighed him 2 more times and he weighed 11bs. I have been going by carbs from the dr. list on this site. I do not know if I can read anything on these cans, I have cataracts and my sight is not that good. Also, it is time to feed my cats. It takes a while to feed KitKat he takes medicine for constipation that is to be taken 1/2 before he eats. No, he was trying to get him to 11lbs because of the diabetes, he never said what he should weigh, Kit Kat is tall and pretty big.

 

Ok—I understand about the cataracts and reading the cans—I don’t have cataracts and I still find it hard to read the tiny print. If the Dr wanted him at 11 pounds and he weighs 11 pound then I will figure out how many calories he needs to maintain his weight and translate that into cans of fancy feast or Friskies in general. It will be close enough. But I’m concerned that he looks skinny at 11 pounds so please double check with your vet if that’s where he wants Kit Kat. Just in case I will also figure out cans per day for weight gain. These will be for general feeding.

if he’s poorly controlled, or has ketones, he will need more food than in general but I’ll let @Bron and Sheba (GA) or @Suzanne & Darcy guide you on that.

 

To maintain his weight at 11 pounds he’d eat approximately 220 -240 calories per day. This comes out to about 3 cans of most any of the Fancy Feast pates (they seem to be 70-90 cal per can, most being 70-80). I think it would be 1 and 1/2 can of Friskies a day (or a bit less, like 1 and 1/3 can) but I’m not clear if you feed him Friskies usually or only if he goes low—the ones you listed on spreadsheet are fairly high in carbs but I think you only feed that if he goes low.

To gain weight it would be closer to 3 and 1/2 to 4 cans of Fancy Feast per day or 1 and 2/3 to 1 and 3/4 cans of Friskies per day —again I’m guessing about the Friskies because I couldn’t find a low carb one to check calories and there was more calorie variation in the flavors I found. If he eats Friskies normally I can look up the calories per can if you can tell me the flavor.

Remember that if he has ketones in his urine or if his diabetes is poorly controlled he will more than the amounts I gave you but this is a starting point. The best thing is to keep track of his weight to see if he’s losing, gaining, or staying the same. And by seeing if he’s filling out some.

 

I looked on some of the cans and found the calories, but I looked at the dr info on this web site and it told the calories on everything. I will post them tomorrow Friskies and FF.

 

I have checked his ketones yesterday and it showed none.

 

I had been feeding him Royal Canin Glycobalance wet & dry, before that Royal Canin SO wet & dry because he had a urinary blockage in 12/22, before that he was eating hill's WD. I did not know what to buy but I had looked at the Friskies pate and they had 5 carbs and 1 had 4 carbs that was Poultry Platter, which he has not eaten yet. I also bought a bunch Of FF feast pate and 4 05 FF grilled chicken & gravy which has 12 carbs. So, out of all of these only 1 has higher carbs. This morning & evening he did not eat all the food I gave him. I would like for him to weigh at least 12 lbs, because he is so big.

 

Hi Theresa

it’s great that you checked Kit Kat and he has no ketones. You’ve been doing an outstanding job with testing and charting. I hope you’ve slept some.

If Kit Kat is now about 10-11 pounds and you want him to be at least 12 I think he needs to be eating at least 4 cans of FF per day, OR 1 3/4 to 2 cans of Friskies pate per day BUT I’m not sure he should be eating Friskies. I will explain the amount first then the concern about Friskies. When I’m done I’ll suggest you start a new thread (new post) and will explain how to do that —just because this is getting long and twisted and I want to be sure @Bron and Sheba (GA) and @Suzanne & Darcy look in on you and Kit Kat because he’s complicated. Ok?

based on his current weight and goal weight he’d need about 300-360 calories per day. This comes out to about 4 cans of FF pate or 1.75 or 2 cans of Friskies pate. You’d need to follow his weight to see if he needs more or less than that because he may not adsorb all the calories from the food until his diabetes is controlled. You can also judge by feeling him and at the end I’ll link a chart for that. Both for diabetes control and weight gain it would be best if he was fed this over several meals and snacks rather than two big meals. Otherwise he will get full and leave food behind. Since he’s had several food changes that also may decrease his appetite. If that’s the case let us know as there are tricks to help.

I don’t think you should feed Friskies if you can afford other food (edit: for regular meals, it’s ok to use to bring up his BG when he’s low)—if you need to feed Friskies for daily food then I’m sure the senior members can advise around it for doses but there’s why I would avoid it: it’s not 5 carbs it’s more like 15-16% carbs. I’m going to tag @Marje and Gracie and @Wendy&Neko check what I say here, since Maria tags them every time I post about food, but the math *I do* says that food is about 15%-16% carbs so if the Chart this forum uses says otherwise then I leave it to them. It may say 4 or 5 carbs on Chewy website or if you write to Purina because that’s the as Fed or Guarenteed analysis. Also, its protein is about 41%. Normally I’d say for a cat who’s lost muscle mass (as I bet Kit Kat has with his weak legs) then you may want a higher protein percent. But that will mean more expensive food probably and I don’t know what to advise about Kit Kats urinary tract issues and special food. They may be able to advise you on how to augment a lower percent protein canned food with some home cooked protein (like maybe poached chicken breast for snacks) but I’m not sure if your eyesight can manage that. So if he’s eating a combination of Friskies and FF it may be why his BG seems so unpredictable.

so again, calorie-wise he probably needs 4 cans of FF OR 1.75 to 2 cans Friskies per day but I’m concerned about Friskies maybe not being a good choice.

 

I suggest you start a new thread, maybe title it “new member needs food and dosing help” and use the “?” Prefix



Then after you fill in the title and what you want to say click on “create thread”

 

Trying to attach a link to body composition score so you can describe how skinny Kit Kat is

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...454803269/Body Condition Scoring - Feline.pdf

 

One last comment on Kit Kats weak legs. Low potassium can cause leg weakness and constipation or loss of appetite. Insulin can sometimes cause low potsssium (K). So if this persists you may want to check with your vet to see if he’s had a potassium level checked recently and if not if you vet thinks one is necessary.

 

The Friskies pate are fine to feed, they are low carb. We have other cats here eating them.

 

Teresa, I think it would be a good idea if you started to post over on the Prozinc page. Suzanne is on that page each day and she is more likely to see you and be able to help you.
The tags don’t work sometimes and she may not see one.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/prozinc-pzi.24/

 

Hi. I asked a few questions and I was waiting for replies. At this point we can just start fresh with a new thread. Just let me know where it is posted.

 

Just looking over the spreadsheet. A dose needs to be chosen where you can consistently shoot that dose most of the time. With ProZinc, we don’t generally move the dose around (e.g. shooting a larger dose because we see a higher preshot) based on preshot numbers. The exception to this (and I believe I said all of this before in an earlier post higher up in this thread) would be that we may choose to shoot a reduced dose if there is a preshot that we have never seen before (lower than we have seen before.)

I believe what you mean by small and large doses is what we call fat and skinny doses here - where a very small amount of additional insulin is drawn or a very small amount less than the regular dose is drawn into the syringe. We don’t need to do that mow as we are not really to the place where we would be “tweaking” the dose. Right now, we need to select a single dose that can be shot both morning and evening as consistently as possible — and then we will consistently adjust the doses from there according to the ProZinc dosing methods.

 

I am feeding Friskies because of the food chart the vet posted on this site. Every Friskies food I feed him on the chart has 4 or 5 carbs. I was getting ready to take take him off of Glycobalance wet food which has 14 carbs, so I was careful of the carbs he was getting. When kit kat was on Royal Canin Glycobalance and Urinary SO and a case of 24 cans the size of FF was $60.00 I don't remember the exact amount and then we also bought the dry food, which I don't remember what I paid for that, but he has a new sack of dry food that I have taken food out of once or twice. So, I doubt if any of the food that is suggested would cost a lot more than Royal Canin.

 

The vet thought that was what made his legs weak so he checked his potassium and it was normal. I started on B12 for his legs.

 

Thank you, the only reason I am feeding Friskies is because I checked the vets chart on this site and Friskies has Carbs of 4 or 5 for the pates, which he what he is eating. I am also feeding him FF for snacks. I was not giving him snacks before, but I am now. If anybody knows of something that I need to feed him please let me know.

 

That is what I am talking about, 75 is too low for Kit Kat but 1 is too much. I am up every night till at least 1 am checking his dose. Last week he got down very low 2 times and thank goodness I was there, and that was not the 1st time. I have had a diabetic cat before, his situation was a lot different, but I do remember a few things.If I go just a little past the marked line he does alright, but any more and it is too much and 75 is not enough.

 

Is this the most current thread? I am trying to comment and don’t want to comment on an older thread.

 

And can you please update your spreadsheet with the last couple of days of data? Thank you. Also, I will put my 2 cents in about Friskies. Friskies is fine to feed a diabetic cat from a low carb standpoint (the classic pates such as liver and chicken dinner, poultry platter, etc.) The phosphorus levels in them are, I believe, too high for a cat with kidney disease or, in my opinion, for a cat who is older. I always feed lower phosphorus foods to my cats who are about 7 or older — tor reduce the workload on their kidneys. Right now I am feeding the Weruva BFF play pates and there’s also a Royal Canin Aging 12+ food that’s really good on phosphorus, although a little lower in calories than an underweight cat would need. All of my cats absolutely LOVE that food. Even sick cats seem to like it (it helped one of my own and a friend’s cat who was not eating.). I have a list of low carb foods that are also low and moderate phosphorus if you would like to see it. It’s not a really long, overwhelming list.

 

Thank you, for your reply. I have to go out today and I did yesterday also. Yesterday, I tried to update what he ate. I am trying right now to get ready to leave, but just as soon as I can I will update with the last couple of days.

 

I was not feeding the snacks, thanks to you I am now.

 

This is a new one I asked her to post in prozinc.
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-member-former-member-needs-food-dosing-help.296479/

I think tech is a bit challenging so you may need to look for Teresa in both places. Thanks so much!

 

I started that thread on Tuesday In Prozinc.

 

Thank you. I will reply over on the ProZinc forum.

 

Yes, I would love to see your list. Can you get the Royal Canin Aging 12+ with out a script. Kit Kat had been on Royal Canin urinary SO for his blockage, he always peed no more than 1 or 2 times a day, even before the blockage. Then he started peeing a lot, I took him to the vet and he said that he had glucose in his urine, he put him on Royal Canin Glycobablance and put him on a diet trying to see if we could keep the diabetes at bay. No, such luck. How, many carbs are in RC Aging +12. I have no problems buying him other foods. He started insulin on Royal Canin wet & dry, I was just trying to get food with lower carbs. I sure do appreciate your help.

 

I looked on the vets list on this site and it shows that RC 12+ had 20 carbs.

 

Yes, I would love to see your list so I can get him on some different food.

 

I would like a copy of the list.