04/17 -Zokni AMPS=104,+2=101,shot 0.5U,+4=48,+5=60,+10=110, PMPS=118,+1=110, +2=103

Zsofi & Zokni

Zsofi & Zokni

Member Since 2020
Hi,

Yesterday: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-213-pmps-79-3-84-dose-decrease-again.228416/

Nan & Amber (GA) said:
Well, would you look at that???

Yes, ideally you want to be able to shoot twice a day, consistently. I guess the thing to do for now is to try 0.5U for a while, but you also want to work on pushing down your no-shoot number. Eventually under SLGS, you can shoot anything over 90. Zokni seems pretty determined to start hanging out in lower numbers, so you are going to have to scramble fast to keep up with her!

How close are you to switching her diet over?
Click to expand...

I finally switched to wet completely yesterday.
He was still rather low around 100 this morning, even though I skipped the PM shot.
You're right, I have to shoot even the low numbers... We're just really new at it + he was still eating some dry food until now, so I have no idea how low he can go...

We just started TR, literally today and he is dropping below 50. I shot him about 1h45 late, I was hesitant but then somehow it clicked that he's not gonna improve by hanging out in the blues.

Also, I'm not testing for ketones? Should I be? How often at least?
 
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Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Did you feed some high carb food, about a teaspoon to bring the BG up Over 50?
Retest in 30mins After last test and post please. Thanks
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I didn't feed him high carb food because he is super active. He was playing, chasing a ball and other toys which is something that hasn't happened in months!

I tested him 30 mins later and his BG is 50
He suddenly started asking for food and he devoured it (I gave him normal LC wet)
I will test again in 30
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
I’d test again in 1 hour to see he is still able to stay up.
Click to expand...

He did!
68 an hour later

I read the rules for TR and it says if a newly diagnosed cat drops below 50, you can either reduce by 0.25, shave off a little (so that would be a skinny 0.5) or keep it up a few days to see if he regularly keeps his lowest BG between 50-80.
How do I choose?
 
Oh my goodness!!!!

I think what we're seeing is the diet change taking effect! Yay Zokni!

Zsofi & Zokni said:
I read the rules for TR and it says if a newly diagnosed cat drops below 50, you can either reduce by 0.25, shave off a little (so that would be a skinny 0.5) or keep it up a few days to see if he regularly keeps his lowest BG between 50-80.
How do I choose?
Click to expand...

Let's see where he is at PMPS. He's so new to this, and with the diet change just finished, we basically have no history by which to judge what he's going to do. We usually try not to do two reductions close together, but Zokni is in a special (good!) situation...
 
Here's the answer to the question about HC food in spain
For high carb I used Purina Gourmet Gold the ones with gravy are higher in carbs. (on the UK food chart it mentions those.

You will need to run the calculations, as it's a while since I used them and manufacturers change their recipies.
https://www.purina.es/gato/gourmet/productos/gourmet-gold-bocaditos-en-salsa-con-salmon-y-pollo
When I run the numbers on the calculator for the salmon and chicken, it still comes out as high carb. (30%)

I also used some of the Cosma Thai, according to the numbers provided on zooplus chicken and prawn comes out at 15% https://www.zooplus.es/shop/top_accesorios/cosma_comida_gatos/cosma_thai/cosma_thai_bolsitas/201947 however do double check those zooplus can sometimes not keep the numbers on their website updated. ( I looked at the fish ones as you mentioned he seems to not like meat)

LC is food under 10%
When we talk about MC we usually mean under 10-17%%
HC is over 17%
Info is in this info post, also has other useful info for those new to the group
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/#post-2404162

You can just add honey or glucose to his regular food to increase the carb, if you make careful notes you will soon figure out how much you need to add for your guy to respond. Carb sensitivity varies from cat to cat. George wasn't the most sensitive to carbs, so when he dropped early and low I learned I had to go with the 30% gourmet gold gravy and add a drop of honey.
 
Nice greens, bet that lime green gave you a shock!
:D
What LC wet is he on now? did you get some new stuff in or still on Sheba?
 
Zsofi & Zokni said:
I read the rules for TR and it says if a newly diagnosed cat drops below 50, you can either reduce by 0.25, shave off a little (so that would be a skinny 0.5) or keep it up a few days to see if he regularly keeps his lowest BG between 50-80.
How do I choose?
Click to expand...
Usually when you are new you would go for the full dose reduction. Skinny the dose is a technique you would use if he is not holding onto dose redutions.

It seems that reducing his carb load has had an immediate impact with him, and ideally we would want him to take the dose down slowly.
I wouldn't skinny the dose for now.
Ideally we don't want to rush down the dosing ladder, it would be good to be able to hold onto a dose for a few cycles and have him give you nice flat green cycles. Have a look at Geroges SS april 2017 which is when he went to remission the first time, that is what we would ideally like to see.

Given the food change, I would maybe take the full reduction to 0.25u, and see if you can hold on to it for a few cycles, you may need to feed to stop him from dropping below 50. So test early in the cycle, +1 or/and +2 and give him a snack especially if you see his numbers dip from PS values. Then depending on results you may need to test again +3/or +4 and give him another snack.
We want to try to get him to stay flat and dark green.

Lets look at this mornings cycle, I am going to use it as an example of how you might feed the curve.

So +1 was 101, his number was the same as amps, usually at +1 we would expect to see a food spike, because the insulin you just shot will not have onset yet (onset usually around +2 with lantus) but he will have digested his food and this will cause an elevation of glucose in his blood stream. The fact that there wasn't a food spike is often a sign that the cycle is going to be pretty active, so if you wanted to keep ahead of the insulin curve and try and flatten him out, a teaspoon of his regular LC cat food would have probably helped (trial and error will help you figure out how much and what carb to give keep good notes on the SS of what you feed and when), by +3 he had onset and dropped to 67 that almost 40pt drop early in the cycle would make you expect to see him drop further, again at that point a little LC food might well have stopped him from dropping below 50 (so nice to hear he was playing and feeling good)

You are probably wondering why you want to hold on to a dose, why not just let him earn the reductions.
We know from experience that a long lasting strong remission is best achieved if we can maintain insulin support to the damaged pancreas, this allows it to heal and thus is more likely to lead to a long lasting remission.
 
All that said, your guy may have other plans, and you may even have to feed some MC or higher LC food in order to hold on to the dose.
 
Gill & George said:
Usually when you are new you would go for the full dose reduction. Skinny the dose is a technique you would use if he is not holding onto dose redutions.
Click to expand...

Ok, clear! Thanks, I was overwhelmed by the options :)

Nan & Amber (GA) said:
Oh my goodness!!!!
I think what we're seeing is the diet change taking effect! Yay Zokni!
Click to expand...
Gill & George said:
It seems that reducing his carb load has had an immediate impact with him, and ideally we would want him to take the dose down slowly.
Click to expand...
I was really trying to do it gradually, maybe it would have been better to stretch even a bit further. But honestly he wasn't keen on the dry food. He often left it, even woke me for more dry in the middle of the night, rather than eat the dry... Anyway, what's done is done! :/

Gill & George said:
Given the food change, I would maybe take the full reduction to 0.25u, and see if you can hold on to it for a few cycles, you may need to feed to stop him from dropping below 50.
[...]
We know from experience that a long lasting strong remission is best achieved if we can maintain insulin support to the damaged pancreas, this allows it to heal and thus is more likely to lead to a long lasting remission
Click to expand...

Should I try to hold on to the 0.5U units first?
He is currently at 137 PMPS.
He finally got his AM shot 1,5hrs later than usual. So that's his new time, right? (eg. 8:30pm instead of the usual 7pm)

Thanks for all the tips on feeding the cycle.
Turns out I got the "bocaditas en salsa" food, but somehow I got mixed up and used some other food's numbers to do the calculation. When it came out to <10% carb, I lost faith in ever finding a high carb food :D I did the calculation again, and it came out to 25% so perfect.

I don't think Zokni reacts excessively to carbs either. I don't see a huge change whenever he eats and I check him an hour later. I will make better notes of the food/snacks he gets, as I do give him quite a few snacks throughout the day, depending on his begging. Before the wet food, I thought he was simply a "begger" but turns out, he can get pretty chill when everything is in order, so I trust that when he puts on a show, he is truly starving...

[QUOTE="Gill & George, post: What LC wet is he on now? did you get some new stuff in or still on Sheba?
[/QUOTE]

Still on Sheba, it looks decent but we'll run out just in time for the zooplus order (it's taking a bit longer than usual). The site is weird, especially on mobile. All the brands you suggested were hiding from me at first... but I found them, and ordered all the fishy flavors that I could find.
I also ordered some LC snacks as well. So he's all set very soon :)
 
I would go with 0.25 it's easy enough to come back up should his numbers run a little higher than you want. Better than having to fight him being too low.

We had a kitty that was on wet LC food, but the rest of the cats were on dry, when the CG got rid of all the dry in the house he went from 5u to remission in a bat of an eye, even though CG never saw him get any biscuits he had obviously been sneaking a few and his bg plummeted when it was removed from the house. It was a nerve racking experience for everyone involved.
 
Gill & George said:
I would go with 0.25 it's easy enough to come back up should his numbers run a little higher than you want. Better than having to fight him being too low.

We had a kitty that was on wet LC food, but the rest of the cats were on dry, when the CG got rid of all the dry in the house he went from 5u to remission in a bat of an eye, even though CG never saw him get any biscuits he had obviously been sneaking a few and his bg plummeted when it was removed from the house. It was a nerve racking experience for everyone involved.
Click to expand...
Great!
Thanks for the advice.
I hesitated to shoot, as he started to drop just when the 12 hours were up...
But I did anyway.
 
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