3/30 Samba AMPS 399, No Shot...and scared he won't accept them moving forward

[Sarah Mc]

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-423-2-340-3-252-5-5-201.175514/#post-1928384

Today we had such a bad morning... Samba would not allow me to give him his shot after I struggled to give it to him for a long time. He was very angry with me and each time would growl, roll over to his side, dig his claw into my hand, latch onto me, kick me, bite me, etc. I posted the other day that he was putting up a fight at shot time, and it has just built up since then. After spending so much time fighting and trying with him, attempting to calm him and treating him, I had to give up and go, and it has been breaking my heart all day. After all the effort I've poured into him the last several months, I feel so down about this and worried that it will continue. I think he is fed up. I had to leave because I was in charge of the police radio for work today and had to make it to the county I work in to sign on the police radio by 9. It was so stressful for both of us, and I don't know what to do to fix this moving forward.

Some thoughts I've had while I've been working today: is there an oral medication I can give him if this happens again that would help to lower his blood sugar and be better than nothing? Is there something topical that I can apply to numb the skin? I assume that this is pain-related, maybe from sticking the same place too many times and building up scar tissue(?) Should I try giving him a PRN anxiety medicine to calm him? I already do a pet-ease gel and calming spray. Should I shave a patch of skin? If I even try to tent his skin, he jumps straight up and goes into attack mode. I'm sure he senses my anxiety now too

This is all new within the last couple weeks and started with quiet growling but no other issues and then really came to a head in the last two days with today being the first day that he has ever missed a shot.

 

[Julie and Eleanor (GA)]

Shaving a patch might help, you might be able to do the tent and shoot faster.

Was he this way when you were giving him Novolin N?
Lantus can sting. Have you thought about switching to Levemir? I was told it does not sting.

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

I feel for you. I didn't have it quite that bad with Shadow but we had days like that.
Is there any thing food wise that he just loves?

Shadow's favorite thing was raw shrimp.... so every morning , i would give her a couple, chopped up small ( no teeth) ...
she didn't mind testing but she hated the shot. It stings a little, she seemed to be extra sensitive to the syringe, and it was cold ( even tho' she was on a small dose)
I quickly discovered that putting shrimp in front of her bought me just enough time to quickly shoot her.
Fortunately she went into remission, because there were days when she would turn on me.... claws... mad.... and unhappy because I was interrupting her shrimps.
I also one day had to really make her know that when it came to shot time, I was alpha. She was not.

She was alpha to our two dogs and all other cats so she tho't she was just the alpha. But when she got sick, I had to do things she didn't like and she did accept
that even tho' she protested.

There is not a pill. The one that's out there does not treat them as they need to be.


If your technique is slow, you can practice on a stuffed toy, an orange, things that help you get the stick and plunger part down faster.

And do you know about the bevel of the needle. it's painful when it's not right.

Use correct Position: Hold the syringe almost parallel to the cat's spine. You want the insulin to be injected just under the skin (subcutaneous) NOT into the muscle, which hurts! Make sure the bevel of the needle is UP. This ensures a clean, quick puncture instead of a drag through the skin.

and are you using a new syringe each time. Reusing cause little spurs on the needle that can hurt more.


You might just have an oversensitive kitty like I did.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I had a similar thought. Samba may be particularly sensitive to Lantus which is acidic and can sting. We usually don't see this in lower doses but it can happen. Levemir works much like Lantus but is a little different in it's pharmacology and as a result, doesn't sting.

There are oral meds. However, they have a poor effect on the pancreas and there would be no hope for remission.

 

[Gussie's mom (GA)]

Hi, so sorry you are having trouble, I can hear your worry and frustration in your post
Couple of questions that might help us help come up with more suggestions..
When are you giving the shot? And what is he doing right when you are?
The reason I ask is it might help to find a different sequence.
Many of us find that giving the shot while our cats have their heads buried in the food dish helps..
Also are you moving where you give the shot on his body? If it's always in the same place he might be getting sore..scar tissue can also develop which will make it increasingly harder to give that shot..
With Gussie I would test, record and then go put his food together I let him get going with his meal and then would give his shot while he ate..and for him, giving his shot along his side worked far better than at the scruff..he hated having his scruff lifted (perhaps from a start at the pound).
For me too, along Gussie's side made it easier for me to know that I wasn't sticking him. For some reason the scruff was harder to get a decent tent on him.
The last tip I have, and you may already be doing this, is to really work the syringe plunger before you draw up the insulin. There is a coating in there that lubricates the plunger. It made a huge difference in how quickly I could inject and shoot the insulin, also made the drawing up easier too to load it.
I hope some of these ideas help, if not toss them!
Each cat is different, and frustratingly it's kind of a necessary trial and error process to find out what works for your cat.. and then they dust it up and everything is out the window..
One thing I think they all share tho is that they are amazingly adept at picking up on any insecurities we have about this stuff....
If we are doubting or frustrated they will definitely run with that.

Hang in there, be kind to yourself.. Gussie would get fed up too some days, suddenly nothing would go right, I'd need 5 test strips and pokes and he'd decide to make me chase him to do what we had been doing in our sleep for weeks on end...I would be so baffled and so frustrated.....then for no obvious reason the dust would settle and he'd be fine and we would settle back into a routine...go figure!

Big hugs to you

 

[Gill & George]

I see you managed to shoot tonight, hope that went a little easier.
I found shooting while George was eating easiest.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Here is a post on Testing and Shooting Tips. Maybe there is something in there that can help you. I made the switch from Lantus to Levemir. I hadn't thought Neko was bothered about the Lantus sting, but she used to occasionally walk away while I gave the shot. She purred through the Levemir shot, so clearly Lantus was bothering her somewhat. Just something to keep in mind if there isn't another technique that will help. I couldn't shoot while Neko was eating, cause she was on raw and typically finished within 30 seconds.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

How have things been going with Samba?

 

[Sarah Mc]

Shaving a patch might help, you might be able to do the tent and shoot faster.

Was he this way when you were giving him Novolin N?
Lantus can sting. Have you thought about switching to Levemir? I was told it does not sting.

He wasn't this way until recently. He was accepting the shots okay once I discovered that doing it while he was eating helped. I had no idea that Lantus can sting. I have 7 Lantus pens in my fridge right now, but I'll consider a switch to Levemir sooner if we are having trouble. Roughly what is the cost comparison, and can Levemir be purchased from Mark's as well? Is one considered a better insulin than the other? Thanks so much..

 

[Sarah Mc]

I feel for you. I didn't have it quite that bad with Shadow but we had days like that.
Is there any thing food wise that he just loves?

Shadow's favorite thing was raw shrimp.... so every morning , i would give her a couple, chopped up small ( no teeth) ...
she didn't mind testing but she hated the shot. It stings a little, she seemed to be extra sensitive to the syringe, and it was cold ( even tho' she was on a small dose)
I quickly discovered that putting shrimp in front of her bought me just enough time to quickly shoot her.
Fortunately she went into remission, because there were days when she would turn on me.... claws... mad.... and unhappy because I was interrupting her shrimps.
I also one day had to really make her know that when it came to shot time, I was alpha. She was not.

She was alpha to our two dogs and all other cats so she tho't she was just the alpha. But when she got sick, I had to do things she didn't like and she did accept
that even tho' she protested.

There is not a pill. The one that's out there does not treat them as they need to be.


If your technique is slow, you can practice on a stuffed toy, an orange, things that help you get the stick and plunger part down faster.

And do you know about the bevel of the needle. it's painful when it's not right.

Use correct Position: Hold the syringe almost parallel to the cat's spine. You want the insulin to be injected just under the skin (subcutaneous) NOT into the muscle, which hurts! Make sure the bevel of the needle is UP. This ensures a clean, quick puncture instead of a drag through the skin.

and are you using a new syringe each time. Reusing cause little spurs on the needle that can hurt more.


You might just have an oversensitive kitty like I did.

Your post was so helpful to me...thank you so much. Food wise, he is already completely over the Pure Bites and Orijen freeze-dried treats, so we are now into Purely Fancy Feast natural hand-selected chicken treats, and we'll see how long that lasts...what he loved loved loved before as his favorite treat was the FF gourmet cat food (dry), but he obviously cannot have that anymore. Interestingly, I used to give him wet FF as a treat all his life, so he actually goes wild over meal time, and we are blessed that he wasn't a cat that had trouble transitioning to wet food at all. He loves the stuff. His 2 favorites are ocean whitefish & tuna and flaked shrimp feast, but I don't give those to him on the regular because I read somewhere to avoid fish because of the mercury? Anyway, the raw shrimp is a great idea, and I bet he will like that. I will try that.

Sorry your experience with your kitty sounds a lot like ours is sometimes, with the claws and Shadow turning on you. Samba, I think, had a rough start to his life...he rarely will turn on me, but he is afraid of most people and will unexpectedly go into attack mode (kinda scary for them). On rare occasions, he will attack me too, but it's so rare and for some reason, it just really gets me emotionally because the majority of the time, he is glued to my side, so attached, and so affectionate & sweet. He is special, and I haven't encountered a cat quite like him before and would definitely be a candidate for Jackson Galaxy's show, but our relationship is very solid.

All that info that you gave was reassuring and very helpful. Thank you. I think I was injecting into his muscle...I feel horrible about that, but he is already doing so much better with me keeping the syringe parallel to his spine. I did know about the bevel, thanks to this wonderful forum, and I do not reuse syringes. I think it's a combo of things that were going wrong and that one is samba being sensitive, but my technique also needed improvement.

 

[Sarah Mc]

I had a similar thought. Samba may be particularly sensitive to Lantus which is acidic and can sting. We usually don't see this in lower doses but it can happen. Levemir works much like Lantus but is a little different in it's pharmacology and as a result, doesn't sting.

There are oral meds. However, they have a poor effect on the pancreas and there would be no hope for remission.

Thank you...that is enough to not bother with the oral meds

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Roughly what is the cost comparison, and can Levemir be purchased from Mark's as well? Is one considered a better insulin than the other?

The prices of the two insulins is comparable. And yes, you can get Levemir pens from Marks as well. The best insulin is one that works for your cat. Some cats are flatter on Levemir (my Neko was) but not all are. One other consideration on switching is that the typical onset and nadir of Levemir is a couple hours after that of Lantus.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

We also shot punkin while he was eating - that was the only thing that worked well for him. I lifted the scruff and shot.

If you have trouble seeing at all (thinking it might slow you down) a hiker's headlamp can make it infinitely easier to see.

Lantus is slightly acidic. That's how it works. Levemir is ph-neutral, so it doesn't sting. Punkin got up to 15.5u on Lantus and tolerated it, but there have been cats that react to Lantus shots as though it stings them, even at doses less than 1u. If you think that's part of it, then switching to Levemir might be helpful. Its nadir is typically later than Lantus' nadirs, which is why I didn't make the switch.

This is from the sticky about the depot and is a great description of how these 2 insulins work. That might be helpful too.

If you continue to have problems, do ask more questions and people can give you their best tips.

 

[Sarah Mc]

Hi, so sorry you are having trouble, I can hear your worry and frustration in your post
Couple of questions that might help us help come up with more suggestions..
When are you giving the shot? And what is he doing right when you are?
The reason I ask is it might help to find a different sequence.
Many of us find that giving the shot while our cats have their heads buried in the food dish helps..
Also are you moving where you give the shot on his body? If it's always in the same place he might be getting sore..scar tissue can also develop which will make it increasingly harder to give that shot..
With Gussie I would test, record and then go put his food together I let him get going with his meal and then would give his shot while he ate..and for him, giving his shot along his side worked far better than at the scruff..he hated having his scruff lifted (perhaps from a start at the pound).
For me too, along Gussie's side made it easier for me to know that I wasn't sticking him. For some reason the scruff was harder to get a decent tent on him.
The last tip I have, and you may already be doing this, is to really work the syringe plunger before you draw up the insulin. There is a coating in there that lubricates the plunger. It made a huge difference in how quickly I could inject and shoot the insulin, also made the drawing up easier too to load it.
I hope some of these ideas help, if not toss them!
Each cat is different, and frustratingly it's kind of a necessary trial and error process to find out what works for your cat.. and then they dust it up and everything is out the window..
One thing I think they all share tho is that they are amazingly adept at picking up on any insecurities we have about this stuff....
If we are doubting or frustrated they will definitely run with that.

Hang in there, be kind to yourself.. Gussie would get fed up too some days, suddenly nothing would go right, I'd need 5 test strips and pokes and he'd decide to make me chase him to do what we had been doing in our sleep for weeks on end...I would be so baffled and so frustrated.....then for no obvious reason the dust would settle and he'd be fine and we would settle back into a routine...go figure!

Big hugs to you

Thank you for such an empathic response...it is just so frustrating that I can't just explain to him that I hate doing this too but it's necessary for his survival and comfort! I was crying, screaming, talking to God, all sorts of things that morning, and you're right, I'm sure that he felt every bit of that and sensed my insecurity... I am working on being mindful of that. What you said about working the syringe was helpful too, and whether or not it helps, I've been sticking the syringe after I fill it under my arm to warm it while I prepare his food. Maybe that helps. Who knows. I have been giving the shot while he's eating, and learning that awhile back made a huge difference for us, thank you we do it at 8 & 8, and I do the test/feed/shoot sequence. I do also move where I do it on his body, but the majority end up going in his scruff 'cause there's more skin to pull there and he gets a little finicky about his belly and above his hind legs. I do think you're right that there is probably some scar tissue along with my bad form and making the mistake too often of shooting into his muscle ... the dust seems to have mostly settled, although he is still resisting a bit and still growling at me thank you so much

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

I have heard that hitting a muscle can be very painful, so it's good that you've figured out how to avoid that.

 

[Sarah Mc]

How have things been going with Samba?

Much better than the one morning..I was pretty emotionally exhausted, and life threw us a curveball that we weren't expecting unrelated to Samba, so I got tied up with that and ended up taking more of a mental break from it all than I meant to. Thanks for checking in. It really means a lot how caring everyone is on here

 

[Sarah Mc]

We also shot punkin while he was eating - that was the only thing that worked well for him. I lifted the scruff and shot.

If you have trouble seeing at all (thinking it might slow you down) a hiker's headlamp can make it infinitely easier to see.

Lantus is slightly acidic. That's how it works. Levemir is ph-neutral, so it doesn't sting. Punkin got up to 15.5u on Lantus and tolerated it, but there have been cats that react to Lantus shots as though it stings them, even at doses less than 1u. If you think that's part of it, then switching to Levemir might be helpful. Its nadir is typically later than Lantus' nadirs, which is why I didn't make the switch.

This is from the sticky about the depot and is a great description of how these 2 insulins work. That might be helpful too.

If you continue to have problems, do ask more questions and people can give you their best tips.

Thank you! Perhaps wearing the magnifier I bought for his calipers will he helpful. It just came in the mail. It goes around my head, and I think it has a light. I do think it might be the sting, as samba will jump straight up in the air as though it stuns him. Will re-read the post on the Depot; thank you

 

[Sarah Mc]

I have heard that hitting a muscle can be very painful, so it's good that you've figured out how to avoid that.

Yeah I mean I hope it wasn't that, but my angle was wrong, so I worry it might have been

 

[Barbara & Uncle (GA)]

Hi Sarah, I've been off the board for a few days dealing with my own curveballs. I'm so sorry to hear about all the stress you and Samba have been going through. I'm happy that you've been given some great advice, ideas and support. I hope things start improving with the injections.
This morning I actually think I hit muscle when giving Uncle his insulin. It felt different and Uncle whipped around even though he was mid-bite breakfast. We were both freaked out! Usually he is fine or just barely irritated that I am pulling his skin up. I too was exhausted after working 13 days in a row last night he dropped from 211 to 50 in hours. I was up until 5:30 am with him making sure he didn't drop any lower. I was a zombie this morning at shot time and think that's why I got the muscle.
I really hope everything starts settling down for you guys soon.

 

[Sarah Mc]

Hi Sarah, I've been off the board for a few days dealing with my own curveballs. I'm so sorry to hear about all the stress you and Samba have been going through. I'm happy that you've been given some great advice, ideas and support. I hope things start improving with the injections.
This morning I actually think I hit muscle when giving Uncle his insulin. It felt different and Uncle whipped around even though he was mid-bite breakfast. We were both freaked out! Usually he is fine or just barely irritated that I am pulling his skin up. I too was exhausted after working 13 days in a row last night he dropped from 211 to 50 in hours. I was up until 5:30 am with him making sure he didn't drop any lower. I was a zombie this morning at shot time and think that's why I got the muscle.
I really hope everything starts settling down for you guys soon.

So sorry, Barbara...the late night drops can really take a toll, especially when working such prolonged hours. Ugh. It definitely isn't an easy path, but I thank Samba every day that he is here and my heart is so full of love for him. Sorry Uncle reacted that way..I tend to startle easily anyway, but it freaks me out too when samba reacts like that and messes with my nerves. Everything seems worse when there's lack of sleep too, right? I hope you can get some rest soon...where is Uncle headed tonight? Do you know yet? That bad test strip thing has happened to me twice before (retested right after and the number was dramatically different)

 

[Barbara & Uncle (GA)]

Thanks for your support! It sure does help to keep going on this crazy journey!
In hindsight I wish I had thought to retest his PMPS. He's been so allover the place with his numbers, at the time I thought it was legit. Then when I got his +2.5 I thought it was for sure just a bad test strip. Now with his +4 I don't know what to think! Just gave him some MC food as insurance to try to slow him down...