3/4 Uncle AMPS 138, +3 92 +5 67, +7 89, +9 124, PMPS 170, +2.5 140, +5 110

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...pmps-130-183-2-161-6-183.174090/#post-1908598

Hello again. I can't believe it's been 3 days since I last posted for Uncle.
Good news, his appetite picked up! So much so that I offered him his raw Turkey again yesterday morning and he has been willingly eating it ever since. No more "meatloafing" either. He curls up or stretches out to sleep again. I feel very happy and relieved to see him like that.
Now I'm on a mission to find a raw, frozen, low carb, low phosphorus food for Uncle or better yet understand what that is. I took a cursory look on Tanya's website and maybe my brain is too full to take any more new info in but it's hard for me to break everything down into simple concepts right now. Honestly I'm feeling overwhelmed, family crisis, lack of sleep and an increasing workload is a big part of it too.
It's bothering me that I haven't reached out to Marje to have her take a look at Uncle's labs and medical history.
I interpreted his results as showing 'Stage 2 Kidney disease". He also has a dental scheduled in a couple weeks and while I am happy to be getting it taken care of, it is not without worry.
Alright, I'm done complaining and will try to stop living in fear as much as possible.
Hope everyone's day goes gentle.

 

Regarding food, since you're already feeding Darwin's, they also have a prescription raw diet for cats with kidney issues. Here's the info on the Intelligent Design variety. It's low in both carbs and phosphorus. You'll need to get in touch with them and have them get an Rx from your vet.

Given that Uncle's SDMA is elevated, this means that there is likely some early kidney disease going on. The good news is that creatinine and phosphorus are within the normal range and there's no protein in his urine. I would talk to your vet about Uncle's platelet count. It's been low for several months but trending back to normal. I'm not sure what the time frame would be for this level to get back into normal range given where it was in Sept. ALT is a test of liver function. Again, the levels are trending back to normal.

One possibility for the elevated BUN and normal creatinine is that Uncle's diet is too high in protein. Protein breaks down into nitrogenous wastes (BUN = blood, urea, nitrogen with the latter 2 being waste products). I'm wondering what changed, other than Uncle being hospitalized in Sept. that caused the drop in BUN. (It may have been that he was on fluids.) How long has he been eating Darwin's?

 

Thanks for your reply. All makes sense to me. He's been on raw food ever sine he got cancer from the rabies vaccination, so over 10 years.
The exception is that since he's been insulin I have used some canned food to help steer him when in low numbers. At first using FF and then found Weruva and Nature's Variety to help in that regard.

 

Glad to hear Uncle is feeling better. I had no idea he had cancer years back. Your little buddy (and you) have been though a lot. It's ok to vent. That's part of the joy of this board- being able to talk to others who are going through similar trials and truly understanding how you feel and where you have been.

I hope he continues to feel better and you do too. And try to get some sleep in if you can! It's not overrated!

Please do reach out to Marje, she's awesome and I have no doubts she will help you.

Ok, tagging her now.. @Marje and Gracie There, done!

Have a nice day Barbara!!!

 

Funny, I was looking at the Darwin's website and checking out the KS page. I wonder if the high protein content may still not be ideal for Uncle. I'm still trying to get up to speed on this stuff.
Thank you so much for your help.

 

Yes, the poor guy sure has been through a lot (you can read all about his misc. exploits under the "Medical History" tab I put on his SS. He had to have his leg amputated for the best possible outcome and thankfully the cancer didn't spread.
And YES! Sleep is not overrated. I may turn into a napper before all is said and done.
Thank you for your care & support. I hope you guys have a good day as well

 

I would also suggest looping @Marje and Gracie into this discussion. She's very knowledgeable about kidney issues and about raw diets. She's been out of town. I don't know when she'll be stopping by the board but I've tagged her so I expect she'll be by at some point.

 

oh my gosh...i didnt know about his leg either!! How did I not know this- i usually read most people's bios that i follow. Poor little guy. He sure is resilient!! What a special beautiful boy you have.

 

Hi Barbara , just wanted to give my support and give a hug. Being, stress, tired,overwhelmed and overworked just sucks.

I can't offer any advise on the low carb/low phosphorus diet as I'm ignorant there but, see where Sienne offered a link at Darwin's. I wonder why you need an RX from a vet for it.

My radar went up when I read cancer from the rabies vaccine. Vaccines for our animals scare me. What kind of cancer and how did they know it was fro the vaccine? Was it at the variation site?

 

Sorry Bobbie, I popped out to walk the dog and get some fresh air.
Thank you for your continued support, your empathetic spirit always transcends through the technology!

The tumor has been referred to as both a "subcutaneus sarcoma" and a "fibrosarcoma" I know not why. My vet at the time recognized it as being at the injection site. Unfortunately she did not excise it properly, she should have take 3 cm all around the tumor but she just "shelled" it and had it biopsied. When the pathology results showed it was that type of cancer she called me immediately and had me schedule with a specialty surgeon. The first thing they did was x-ray his lungs to check for tumors, which thankfully they didn't find. Because that type of cancer is so virulent and spreads through the body so quickly when disturbed, it was recommended that his leg be removed at the hip as soon as possible for best survival outcome. I feel lucky. Those cats who were vaccinated in the scruff have no chance for a surgical remedy. My vet even told me that's why it's not standard practice anymore to use the scruff as a vaccination spot.
The one good thing my vet did was document all the vaccinations she gave Uncle (when & where they were given) and sent them to Fort Dodge. The vaccine manufacturer Fort Dodge had (maybe still does) a fund dedicated to paying people when their animals got cancer from the vaccine if they could prove liability. I took their money which helped to offset SOME of the costs of the 2 surgeries and aftercare. I felt sick signing the paper in which I would agree to never be a part of a class action suit against them. Since it was not a gag order, I am free to share my experience with others. And I do when asked. I am not a crusader for or against and I have heard there may are some safer vaccines now. If I were to advocate for something it would be EDUCATION. Everyone should make the decision about vaccinations with as much knowledge as possible.
Whew, okay enough of THAT It's been 10 years and I still have my guy, the surgeon told me cats only need 3 legs, the 4th is a spare!

 

Barbara

I just got back from TX late last night so I will take a few moments tonight to look through the labs for you.

There has been different thinking in the past about whether to feed CKD cats high or low protein. There has been a shift among knowledgeable vets that a cat leaking protein and experiencing muscle wasting due to kidney disease needs good quality protein and that the protein shouldn't be restricted to the degree that you see it in the renal diets.

My vet, who I really trust, is also very much a proponent of Dr. Karen Becker at Mercola Pets and I always look to Dr. Becker's site for information. She says this about proper nutrition for CKD cats:

As a biologist, this makes more than a lot of sense to me and I've always fed my CKD cats accordingly and do not skimp on quality of protein and certainly do not restrict protein. My vet is also a big proponent of Darwin's Intelligent Design food for CKD cats. I have never used it since it was developed after my last CKD kitty crossed. I don't know what the carbs and P levels are and would have to call the company to get the as-feds or DMB.

Vaccination site sarcomas used to be prevalent due to the adjuvant added to the vaccines. We lost a kitty to a vaccination site sarcoma which metastasized into liver cancer. When it was realized that the vaccines were cwusing vaccination site sarcomas, vets started giving them in the legs instead of between the shoulders so if there was a vaccination site sarcomas, the leg could be amputated and the kitty spared. Our kitty was not so lucky because his vaccine was give between the shoulders.

The adjuvants have been changed and also eliminated in some vaccines. I believe the vaccine that was most prevalent in causing vaccination site sarcomas was FeLV. I don't know the status of current vaccines and vaccination site sarcomas as, with the exception of kitten FVRCP, I quit vaccinating when I lost that kitty. But my cats are indoors and I know Bubba goes out.

Thanks for your patience, Barbara...I'll be sure and look at the labs tonight.

 

hugs, cancer is scary and Uncle and Bubba are working with a little less equipment but, they are still here!

 

Hi Marje , we must have just cross-posted. I'm so sorry you lost your kitty to that, I have since met a few people whose cats got the sarcoma and it was in the scruff. Not good...

 

I'm sorry you had to go through that cancer with Uncle, but glad he survived. How scary. I'm glad Uncle's appy is better and he is feeling better today. Sending prayers.

 

Uncle has certainly had his share of issues in his short little life - he is so lucky to have you, Barbara

 

Yes, his sister, my heart cat Annabelle, got lung cancer and I had to help set her free when she was only 8. I'm still grieving our temporal separation.
Their brother Squeaky, who Uncle was/is strongly bonded to got taken down at age 12 by a cancerous tumor in his mouth . This after having cystitis, bladder stone surgery, stomatitis, pemphigus foliaceus, surviving a saddle thrombus and living with CHF. I'm probably forgetting a few things in there as well. When the cancer specialist asked the regular vet to fax his records over, they said they couldn't -too many pages, so I had to pick the dossier up and drive them across town to hand deliver. Squeaky was really cute and funny, also such a bed bug. We all miss him so much.
I already had 4 cats (Annabelle , Uncle and 2 others) when I finally caught Squeaky. I socialized him and my next door neighbors (who had already taken in 3 cats I trapped from the street) said they would take him. This was back in the day when I used to leave a cat door open so everyone could come and go day or night. EVERY morning I would wake up to find Squeaky and Uncle wrapped around each other. This happened night after night for about a week and we all just realized that the cats had decided and that was that.

 

OMG ! Barb, those photos are priceless! You and your kitties have been through so much. Wishing you smooth sailing from now on.

ETA: I am partial to orange cats

 

Yes, still here

 

OF COURSE YOU ARE!!!

They have all brought me so much joy just watching them be themselves and interacting with the natural world and hanging out and sleeping on top of me too! Sadly Uncle hasn't been the same since Squeaky died. Their companionship was all encompassing. He became so depressed and would walk around the house crying for months. He knew what happened, Squeaky died on his own at home. I let his body stay there so everyone could process. Finally I went to an animal communicator on the advice of my new vet to try to see if/how I could help. She said basically their bond was so physical and Uncle's grief so intense that it was blocking his ability to feel connected to his brother on another plane. I can't believe I did this but I asked if he wanted to die so he could be with his brother. She said no. I f-ing don't what I would do if she said YES . I ended up giving him a compounded anti-depressant, and a work to eat toy for something to do. Looking back, I think I may have induced the diabetes by doing so. The anti-depressant probably elevated his glucose levels and I was putting some "high quality, grain-free" dry kibble in the work to eat toy a couple times a day. Bummer, if so Wow, it's true confessions time over here. I guess I needed to get it all out on the table today. Well, if any one is still reading, apologies and that's for hanging in there with my story....

 

Thanks Carla, I know you had been aware that he wasn't feeling good the past few days. It's made a big difference knowing you're being checked in on.

 

Thanks Carol. I know you knew a bit of his story, it's been kind of a lot. Diabetes is just another challenge I hope to help him with. Couldn't do it without all you guys THAT'S FOR SURE

 

Good to know!

The Carb content for Darwin's KS food is 3% as fed, 7% DMB, 5% caloric contribution
Protein is 15% as fed, 48% DMB and 34% caloric contribution

Phosphorus as follows:
1,000 units per kcal ME listed as "g" (assuming gram?)
.84 per 1,000 kcal ME
I don't yet know what this means...


Will check out Dr Becker's site now. I know I have heard of her!

 

Thank you....I'll run the calculations on this....did you get the as feds off their website as I also need fat.

 

Yes
Crude Fat 12% as fed, 38% DMB, 61% caloric intake

 

Barbara - the stories about your cats are spellbinding. You should write a book (I am serious) It must have been heartbreaking when Squeaky died Poor dear Uncle - I wish I could give him a big hug, instead here is a virtual one for him
I wish I could find an AC - my vet doesn't believe and I am clueless how to find one around Chicago

 

You don't have to find one in your area..... @Marje and Gracie used to use one all the time ....Her name is Linda Jones

She does them over the phone

 

Well thank you Carol for Uncle's virtual hug and for reassuring me, I worry I will be judged as melodramatic. Would you believe I'm actually "a dog person"
I don't know much about it but it's my understanding that AC's can communicate virtually. Bobbie probably can weigh in on this and I don't even know if that interests you. It's pretty fascinating. My regular vet just sponsored one of her employees at the clinic who had expressed an interest, to attend a weekend seminar on the subject. I think that is probably a pretty rare thing for sure.

 

Not to completely change the subject on your condo, Barbara - but in about 6 weeks I am going on an African safari with some wildlife veterinarians - my vet found someone who lives near me who just lost her two diabetic IBD cats who seems to be willing to keep Murphy while I am gone. Could I use an AC to tell Murphy that he will be staying with her for just 10 days then I'll come back for him?

 

Yes you can....they can also tell you how Murphy feels about you leaving

 

Oh PLEASE DO!!!
That is SO exciting. I just popped over to your condo to check on Murphy and saw that! Of course I really want to hear all about it when you get a chance.
As far as letting Murphy know, I imagine you can tell start telling him yourself. If you are already thinking about it and starting to make arrangements he may very well sense somethings up. That said, I imagine an AC could really help reassure you both that all is understood.

 

back at ya

 

Linda Johns not Jones and her website is Journey to Healing. She's amazing and yes, you can talk to her about that @Carol & Murphy. I've used her for 15 years and still do. My kitten, Livia, is about to be spayed and Tobey needs a dental so we will have a chitchat with Linda so they understand what's coming up.v

@Barbara & Uncle i looked on the Darwin's website and the numbers you gave me for fats, carbs, protein are guaranteed analysis, not as feds. I looked to see if there was any other info about as fed values, but didn't see it other than the chart but as feds should not be reported as maximums and minimums, as they are.

P is usually reported as mg P/100kcal. If you take their value of 0.84 and divide it by 10, it would be lower in P than the prescription renal diets which are some of the lowest.

 

Here is the link to the page where the info came from. I see that it says "Guaranteed Analysis" and under that lists "As Fed" & "Dry Matter". I'm so glad you're willing to help me because clearly I'm missing something!

 

The kitty pictures melted me. I am a mess now! LOL! Also partial to the orange tabbys. I have had a lot of kitties in my life and never wanted an orange tabby (felt they were too common), but Ozzy has been the sweetest, most loving, loyal and silly kitty I have ever owned. (shhh..don't tell Figgie who is my cat familiar). He is one of the biggest joys of my life as I am sure Uncle is to you.

 

Well, I was close!!....LOL At least I got her website link right

She was very helpful with getting my cats calmed down .....the civvies were beating up on China so I had her find out what was going on and what I could do about it

 

Wow, this whole AC is pretty fascinating to me. What do they do and how do they do it (especially over the phone)?

@Chris & China can you give some details on how LJs helped you when your civvies were beating up on China???

 

I never REALLY knew about the orange tabby reputation. We had an orange stripey we named May Day growing up and he was indeed a sweetheart. I just never new it was a real phenomenon. Then I would hear people say, "oh those orange stripy cats are the best, so sweet and loving" here and there. When these two boys decided to move in with me, my dog and the other cats I just couldn't deny them. Uncle became the "mama cat" to them all. Cleaning them and watching over them. To think he was a big old feral tom cat when I trapped him. If you notice in the pictures his ear is tipped. He was so wild I had to wear leather gloves just to pick up the trap with him inside it to take to the vets. They tested him for all the cat diseases & rabies, he was negative so I had them give him a round of shots, neuter him and tip his ear so anyone in the future could recognize he was neutered already. I released him back onto the street and built a little feeding shelter and cat house so he could get out of the weather and I could keep an eye on him. After about 4 months he decided to move in and now 15 years later he's sleeping soundly on "his" ottoman while I tell his story.

check, check, check and check! I will NEVER say a word to Figgie

 

She "communicated with them" and said that the main culprit was doing it because he felt it was his responsibility to "protect the house" by driving out the "sick" cat....just like a feral colony will beat up on a sick member.....the other one was just going along for the fun of it, but told her that if #1 stopped, she'd stop too

She "explained" to him that China wasn't actually sick and wasn't going to hurt anyone by her "disease"

Also, #1 was jealous of the attention China was getting and missed getting as much snuggle time as he was used to, so I made it a point to spend more time with him like we had before the diagnosis

She also sells some essences that are designed to help with different types of problems......ones to calm them, ones to build confidence, etc....

@jayla-n-Drevon also had a session with Linda

 

Love LOVE LOVE this story! Uncle sounds so special and I'm literally falling in love with him and his story over the internet..and you too!!!

As far as the Orange Tabbys go....they don't write about them and make cartoons about them for no reason!! They are awesome!!

 

Wow!!! This is crazy and amazing at the same time!!! Poor China... she just has diabetes (and is super well regulated thanks to her AMAZING mamabean)... the other kitties were probably so confused. Figgie is an intensely jealous kitty. Always has been since the day we brought Ozzy home. We actually got Ozzy for Figgie because his brother Bleu got lost and Bleu and Figgie were so bonded (like Uncle's pictures above which is why I was so touched by them) and Figgie was so sad when his brother/littermate was gone. Figgie and Ozzy have a love hate relationship. But Figgie is definitely a jealous one. I don't know what to do to make it better. We try to spend equal amount of time with both kitties, snuggle them both the same, and they get exactly the same everything. It's a hard thing. We keep trying to do our best. Wonder if an AC would help with this.

 

Might give it a try....there might be something going on other than jealousy over snuggle time causing the problems

 

That would be so amazing if you could get help for Figgie. I'm sure that was traumatic for him poor thing. Sounds like you guys have done your best and it's so hard when you don't know how to help them.

 

So glad to hear/see that Uncle is feeling better! He had nice numbers today, too!

Those pics are so sweet. I miss the days when some of my kitties would snuggle. Taffy and Baby do not, or very rarely.

I had an awesome orange tabby, also. Meow Meow. He was my first cat in adulthood (just had doggies) and soon enough there were four! He was an awesome, smart, handsome, regal cat!

There is an animal communicator near me who does readings, but also gives classes. She says that anyone can learn to be an animal communicator. I have not used her (yet) but I am curious.

 

@Barbara & Uncle Some companies use the as feds as guaranteed analysis. I'm not sure if Darwin's does but if it does, the % of calories from carbs for the Instinctive Design is 6%, protein is 32%, and fat is 62%. I'd have to talk to them to check on the P.

As far as his labs go, he does appear to be in Stage 2 CKD. Even though raw food has more moisture, if you aren't adding water to his food, it's a good idea to do so.

His potassium is just on the border for where you would start supplementation. It's a little difficult when you have a CKD diabetic cat because insulin "can" cause the uptake of potassium into the cells while with CKD increased urination and/or vomiting can cause depletion of potassium at the cellular level, where you want it to be. The normal range is 3.4-5.6 but for CKD cats, the serum level is probably higher than the cellular level. If the serum level is, as in Uncle's case, 3.9, then with CKD in the picture, it could be even lower than that in the cells.

His phosphorus is a bit high and I would really work on getting that down. His calcium is also a tad high but, hopefully, if you can get the P down, the Ca might also come down. His sodium is a tiny bit high so I'd try and look for lower sodium foods, as well.

His hematocrit is really good right now but when it starts getting down to 30%, he will need some an vitamins. His platelets are likely low just because it is common for them to clump when the blood is drawn.

His SDMA and urine specific gravity do indicate CKD. His ALT is just very slightly elevated. I would t worry about it but I'd keep an eye on it...it needs to not get any higher.
.
Please let me know if you have questions.

 

I think using the calipers religiously is helping me get more consistent dosing. It was a hassle at first but now I've got a good set up and flow.
Yes, I miss the days of cat snuggling too. It's really crazy beautiful! HaHa. Meow Meow was the gateway drug
I have been considering going back to have another session with Uncle. I want to know why he cries after he eats sometimes, if he's in pain and where. Also may be good to make sure he knows he's going to go back to the vets to get a dental. I just haven't because so tapped out
If you ever go to the AC there, please let me know how it went for you.

 

Meow was the gateway kitty, for sure! I would have more right now if I could! Soon, I hope!

Which calipers are you using?

 

Thank you for taking the time to look at Uncle's labs and let me know your evaluations.
Unfortunately I'm already adding water to his food at every meal and have been since his diabetes dx. so I probably can't improve there. I make it the consistency of gravy.

The questions I have right now, and please just get back to me whenever is most convenient for you, are the following:
Have you heard of "Chitosan"? The Darwin's Kidney Support food we've been discussing says they use it as an ingredient for a P binder
Going forward, how often and/or at what intervals should I get blood work & urine tests done so that I can best keep track of Uncle's numbers?
Should I call Darwin's to ask them if they us feds as guaranteed analysis?

 

These https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X6UKXIA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

When you take a good look at the lines on a handful of needles, it's absolutely horrifying to think about using them -when you are micro dosing especially.

 

I know, I have had a few bags of syringes lately that are a mess!

 

Chitosan helps with uremia and, theoretically, absorbs the toxins produced from the kidneys not working well. It is not a P binder in and of itself so I think they are stretching that a bit but it is often mixed with calcium carbonate which is a phosphorus binder. Egg whites lower the overall P level. They do mention they add extra Ca to minimize P absorption.

There are a lot of ingredients to thismfood that I think are unnecessary but not harmful. If I had a CKD cat, this food would be on my feeding list because of the other high quality ingredients and the fact that it is raw.

I never fed Darwin regular raw food because their P levels are so darn high due to the ground bone. A healthy cat can process the P in the food and a young cat needs the higher P. But I figure, why tax the kidneys more than they need to be with so much P even though the ground bone is good for cats. The exception is, of course, kittens, who need the high P and bone for their developing bones.

Now Darwin's has this renal diet with a lower P.

It would be good to find out if their as feds and DMB are the same as their GA or why they mentioned it like that. It would also be good to find out what the P is on a DMB in terms of mg of P/100 kcal. The other thing I would ask them is the source for all their minerals. Many companies state the food is made in the USA and it IS but the ingredients, particularly minerals, are sourced elsewhere and "elsewhere" is often China.

Your goal for his P level right now is no more than 2.57-4.59. At Stage 2, Tanya's suggests testing every six months as long as kitty is stable.

That gives you time to read through the essential sections on Tanya's. It is really an excellent resource.

 

Thank you again Marje for taking the time to evaluate Uncle's labs, answer my questions and point me to Tanya's website. This will allow me to have a more educated discussion with the vet and continue to search for food that will support his health as much as possible.

I went to Tanya's website to investigate food recommendations and now am leaning against the Darwin's Intelligent design Kidney Support. Too many unnecessary ingredients as you noted and a few she does not recommend. Also, it seems they have not been helpful to her when trying to figure dry matter analysis.
These comments were taken directly from the website "This is a raw food diet which contains lots of vegetables (unnecessary for CKD cats) and some questionable ingredients such as parsley and dandelion (diuretics), cranberries, and cod liver oil. None of these is recommended for CKD cats. Despite repeated requests, the manufacturer has not been able to provide me with the dry matter analysis figures for this food, so I can only tell you the minimum levels." Honestly it seems impossible to find a pre-made raw food that meets all of Uncle's requirements, but the above comments as well as the fact that they add salt (and as you now his sodium level is a bit high) makes it a deal breaker.
Seems like I'll be defaulting to canned food or looking into making my own.