? 3 Jan | Girlie AMPS 171; +3=85 Hypo on human meter, ok on AT?

Discussion in 'Lantus (Glargine) / Levemir (Detemir)' started by Girlie's mom, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    Condo: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/2-jan-girlie-amps-367-2-245-3-126.188946/#post-2100894

    So which meter do you trust when it comes to shark numbers? I thought I'd just test today with AT and the human meter (have Freestyle Lite and Bayer Contour Next).

    But what do you do when the human meter registers 48 (in shark territory, so reduction) but the Alpha Trak measures 85 (18 over shark territory)?

    Readings: Same drop of blood; I'm quick on the draw with these!
    • Alpha Trak: 2 readings: 85 and 86
    • Freestyle Lite: 2 readings: 48
    • Contour Next: 59

    This is Cycle 12 of 0.1, so next stop is a drop, but I don't know if I should
    • wait til she hits shark territory on AlphaTrak to consider this a reduction
    • hold this dose even if she goes into shark territory (on ATrak) if she's easy to bring up and make her earn the reduction to a drop
    • reduce and see if she can hold it on lower carb foods

    Just fyi, I'm home and can monitor for 5 more days, but then I'll be back at work full-time, if that makes a difference!
     
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  2. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

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    Jul 25, 2016
    Are you using the appropriate strips with the Alpha Track? I know some use "other" strips with it because they are less expensive.
     
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  3. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    I'm using AlphaTrak strips with the AlphaTrak and the appropriate strips with the others: Freestyle Lite with that one and Contour Next with that one.

    Isn't this an interesting pickle? :rolleyes:

    We'll see where the +4 brings us (shortly).
     
  4. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    I hesitated mightily at +3 about whether to give food and what carb (gosh, the carb dance is driving me nuts!) :banghead:

    I gave her a tsp of 12% gravy just because +4 is usually when the Levemir kicks in.

    So now at +4:
    AT = 97
    FSL = 61

    I almost wish I'd just let her go to see where she'd end up! Maybe next time...
     
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  5. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2013
    Meters can vary by 20% so if one is high and the other low they would be closer together. The actual BG is likely somewhere between the two. No symptoms right? I would have fed some mc.
     
  6. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    No, no symptoms. I've never seen symptoms in her, although the lowest I've seen her go on AlphaTrak with me was 48, which is quite low, given that 68 is the take action number for AT. And she was happy as a clam lying in the sun on that reading! While I went eek! eek! :woot:

    In the past, when she was going low, it was easy to know: she'd look for food desperately and come sit as close to me as possible, and even purr (and she's not a purry cat). But she's stopped reacting that way, for the most part, to lower numbers. Right now, she's happy to lie out on the verandah: no interest in coming in for food at all. If I bring it out to her, well, then she'll eat it. (Spoiled cat!)

    Do they get more used to lower numbers and stop looking for food when they drop, I wonder?
     
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  7. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Best of three?
     
  8. Alicia & Maggie (GA)

    Alicia & Maggie (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jun 17, 2017
    :D I think our cats are long lost cousins... :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    I think it's the age thing, Alicia: once they reach that mighty age of 18, I think they think that all good things should come to them...they've earned it! ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  10. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    In my test readings of the three meters, it does seem like the Freestyle Lite runs the lowest every time. If I used that meter, I'd be dancing with joy at Girlie's SS numbers! And that does my head in, to be honest...

    Am I right in thinking that you used the Freestyle Lite with George predominantly, or just as a backup for another meter? What did you think of the FSL?
     
  11. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2013
    They look for food with low numbers. It keeps them from an active hypo so you want that.
     
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  12. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2017
    Hi Darrah, Happy New Year!

    I've been in your shoes, and ran comparisons between the FSL and AT2 for weeks. I have also seen take action numbers with FSL but not AT2 on occasion. I have two FSL meters, and because of meter variance, they can read differently with the same drop of blood. I believe a few more experienced members have run comparisons over a longer period of time between human and pet meters than I did, I finally gave up after I satisfied my need to "just see" what it was on AT2. Not to say that I don't still check once in a while :rolleyes:.

    But, in the end, for me, it was the pattern on FSL that I was after. That, and running both was expensive, the FSL strips are not quite as dear as AT2 strips, but close here in Canada ;)

    So my Canadian 2 cents...pick one, any one, and stick with it :). Or, keep comparing until you satisfy your need to "just see" :D
     
  13. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    Yes, I agree with what you've said. I was just curious re: one meter suggesting a possible hypo when another meter doesn't by a long shot! It just seems odd to me to try to treat Girlie with food for a possible hypo when she's nowhere near it... but I guess this is where comparing meters can do your head in. I always thought that when I transferred over to a human meter, I'd check possible hypos with the Alpha Trak, just to be sure. But I guess even that isn't a good idea, if today is any indication. Sigh! :banghead:

    Happy New Year to you and yours. I really hope all goes well with Mav this year. Lovely blues so far today! :cool:
     
  14. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2017
    Oh, believe me, I understand. Again, just my experience, and (knock-on-wood) Mav is easy to steer with food, the last lower than 50 I gave 8% carb, with a bit of 11% gravy, and he came back up and surfed. But, then he does like his bounces, and I worry a lot because I know that some numbers aren't really all that great (read...checking with AT2). Yes...lovely blues today, but a few of those numbers would be mellow yellow on AT2. It's an adjustment I still struggle with.

    What would you have fed Girlie early cycle with an AT2 85? Not sure whether your approach has changed a bit now that Girlie is on Lev? You may need to fine tune things as you get more used to the human meter, but you know Girlie really well :), you'll get there.
     
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  15. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    I know what you mean, Christie. With the AT 85, I wouldn't have even thought of giving her 12%, which (seeing what she's done), would have been the right thing to do. I think she really needs to "earn" the reduction to a drop - but maybe that's wrong? It'll be hard not double checking the low numbers against the AT2, that's for sure! I don't think I'll be able to keep myself from doing it with the shark diving numbers.

    On the other hand, the Bayer Contour Next reads higher than the FSL seems to, so maybe that's the meter I'll end up going with. I am going to change to a human meter: I'm just trying to decide which one! :rolleyes:
     
  16. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
    A 48 on a human meter isn’t generally considered a hypo number. There have been a few cats over the years that have been a bit wobbly even in the 60s but I prefer to think of numbers as low (40s-50s) or in the range that a symptomatic hypo could occur (30s and below) remembering ECID.

    My bigger question is why agonize over three different meter readings? Why compare them? I did AT and Micro comparisons to show members that the difference is inconsistent so don’t drive yourself crazy comparing them. Next time, the Contour could be lower. I found that at high numbers, the Micro was higher than the AT.

    Best recommendation: pick one. You are looking for patterns. Give the reductions when she hits the reduction methods for the method you are following.

    You’ll save yourself a lot of angst and we could all use more

    08E9C9FC-FA31-4005-959E-5E0278B54CA8.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  17. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    I'm in the process of choosing a human meter and will probably go with the Bayer Contour Next as it doesn't run as low as the FreeStyle Lite. My question earlier today was an academic one, really: when is a shark dive a shark dive? Isn't 48 on a human meter is considered a shark dive and cause for a reduction (as with Girlie today on the FreeStyle Lite human meter)? However, on the AlphaTrak2, she wasn't anywhere near shark territory and therefore nowhere near earning or needing a reduction, as the rest of the day made clear. That was what really made me curious as I know that the AT2 is more accurate, so I thought I would keep that as a backup to really know how low she actually was when it came to shark dives and earning reductions.

    Take tonight: I just find it interesting that her PMPS on the AT2 is a pink 311, but on the Freestyle lite she's actually still blue at 196: that's just too weird (although 196 is close to a yellow 200). I've put those different readings at the end of my 2017 SS for the time being for convenience's sake. Anyway! I'll get the Contour Next strips tomorrow and then will decide which human meter I want to use and make the switch over. She'll certainly look better on a human meter than she does on the AT2, that's for sure. :)

    I did look at your comparisons a while ago; very interesting how large the differences in readings can be. My main concern is the shark dive and lower readings in particular.

    Even though this is Cycle 13 of the Levemir 0.1, she's just gone back in green, so I guess we'll just hang in with the 0.1 for a while longer, especially as I know after today that she'll look very different once I'm using the human meter. (And does that every do my head in, but that's okay: I'm moving towards acceptance!)

    I guess it doesn't matter how long we stay on the same dose, dose it, as long as the numbers are looking good - is that right? I'm inclined to ask Girlie to earn the reduction to a drop by waiting for more than just one shark dive at this point, or is that unwise, do you think?

    Thanks so much, Marje! :bighug:
     
  18. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Well-Known Member

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    Feb 28, 2012
    Replying from your post on Quintus' condo. Data older that 2 weeks isn't useful for deciding how to dose. But patterns may stay the same, until the cat decides to change them. :p Ditto on food.

    Don't compare AT and human meter numbers - it will drive you crazy. Differences between human meters should be less.
     
  19. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    I used the freestyle lite for about 6 weeks, after a meter dunking incident:rolleyes: once I got a replacement I went back to the other meter (SD). I only did one side by side test when I got my replacement meter sent out, and in that reading the freestyle lite was 16 points lower. (SD was 79 and freestyle 63). (see Jan 8 2016 +2 in the pm cycle)

    From then on I kept the FSL as a back up.
     
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  20. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    Thanks so much, Gill. I think I'm going to go with the Bayer Contour Next as it doesn't go as low as the FSL. I just have to get more strips, and then I'll be good to go!
     
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  21. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    Oh my goodness - well how did I not know that? I'm so laughing at myself: and here I've been studying and making decisions re: food and carb levels based on data much older than 2 weeks. So that's no good, is that right? Or is it just that data older than 2 weeks isn't useful for deciding whether to increase or decrease a dose? I'm still a little confused... - sorry!
     
  22. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    I liked the FSL meter, the tiny drop of blood made testing very easy, but the decision to change was a no brainer for me as the strips are expensive here in spain, (1 euro= 1.5 Aus dollars) versus the SD which was about 0.12Euros = 0.18 aus dollars
     
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  23. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
    The FSL used to have the rep as reading much lower. The Contour is a good human meter...I had one and liked it but the one I had required a larger sample size than the AT, as did my all time fav human meter, the One Touch mini (loved that meter...so accurate). I switched to the ReliOn Micro because it reminded me of my OT...although read a little lower.

    “Shark dive” is a relatively new term to L/L Land in reference to lower numbers. I suppose everyone has their own definition but I would say “no” a 48 would not be a shark dive number in my mind. I think of anything below 40s on a human meter and below 58 on an AT as “shark dive” it that’s just me.
     
  24. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2013
    @Marje and Gracie I agree with you. I see lots of people talking hypo when their cats are 48-60 without symptoms. To me that was always an alert to watch more carefully and make sure that the BG didn’t drop under 40. I never considered it to be a hypo. In fact I don’t think Max ever sent hypo even when in the 30’s.
     
  25. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Well-Known Member

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    Feb 28, 2012
    Yes, that one. But with the caveat that cat's can change patterns over time, so just because a cat did something 6 months ago, they may or may not still do whatever that was. Always expect the unexpected. :cat:
     
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  26. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    This is super interesting, it reminds me of a passing comment I saw about the fact we're so precise with numbers when deciding if they earn a reduction or not (51 no! 49 yes!) when we're using tools with a 15-20% margin of error on some readings.
    Damn, I just saw a passage in a paper I was reading about how they checked tool precision (with the AT) for the study, need to remember which one it was. I think it was the oral paper on Degludec. Will check.
     
  27. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    This article that I pulled out for yesterday's condo would seem to imply that at least in humans, it might: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3568263/ (definitely something that concerns me)

    Really interesting to see these differences. And how we might agonize over +/-10 or less, when if we were using another meter we would be having a completely different experience. What you mention about worrying about sharks if you look at one meter, and not even giving it a second thought if you look at the other is revealing of the amount of imprecision we deal with here.
     
  28. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    I remember you and Wendy commenting on that when I had to swap to the FSL, as it did also coincide with George's overall range coming down, I never did any side by side comparisons, but it did seem suspicious.
     

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