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5.2.15 Zoey (HI)+4(297)+6(228)+8(191)PMPS(342)+3(283)

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by Rose, May 2, 2015.

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  1. Rose

    Rose Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    (sigh) ...

    Zoey is drinking a TON of water. I mean, she's sleeping by the water bowl. I gave her the fluids yesterday and that is the first time she's registered any ketones that I'm aware of. They're gone this morning, but I will check again during the day. Her skin is very crepe-y and easily torn on her belly. I know that's bad. Her area of petechiae looks worse today. I gave her turmeric again last night. It was the second night of doing that and both nights she's stayed high and started the next morning off in abnormally high numbers. Also, I read this morning that curcumin (ingredient of turmeric) thins the blood so I'm wondering if that's what's contributed to the flare up I'm seeing of petechia across a larger area of her body. Common sense would dictate that I take her to the vet, but the vet's already said he doesn't know what's causing it and the internist thinks she needs to lose weight and get the diabetes under control. The fructosamine test (sp?) indicated that her diabetes is managed. Again, her appetite (she'll eat anything, anytime) does not support the diseases that would be associated with the petechiae. I think we'll stop the turmeric and go through the weekend and see what happens and if it gets reabsorbed.

    I'll go ahead and give her another 50 ml (not 500 :rolleyes:) of fluids this morning to help flush her system out. With all the water she's trying to drink, it has to help.

    @julie & punkin (ga) and @Wendy&Neko --- read the thread on ketones. We're open to adjusting Zoey's feeding and giving her more food/insulin. Maybe that's what's contributing to all of this, cutting her food back so much? I mean, now she gets a little over a can per day and some pieces of chicken or tuna here or there; whereas before she was being free fed kibble (I'm afraid to think how much of THAT she was eating), and she also had two cans of cat food plus whatever else she ate of the other cats' food - every day. It breaks my heart to think our good intentions of getting her healthy are making her worse but maybe it's just too much change, too fast. ?? Do you (or anyone reading this, please chime in) have any suggestions on how we should go about doing that and working the insulin? I really don't care if she's on insulin for life ... whatever it takes to get her back and feeling better.

    Sure do hope you all have a great Saturday!

    yesterday
     
  2. Megan & Oren

    Megan & Oren Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2015
    Rose; so thankful to see the keytones gone. You're an amazing momma to this lucky lady. I so admire you digging in and researching any and everything to get at the underlying issue causing her illness. Perhaps you should have been a vet?! Anyway, she is in great hands and couldn't ask for a better bean to help her through her trials. She seems a tough little girl no matter her trevails, please give her scritches and pats from me and head-butts from Oren:cat:!
    Have a lovely Sat.
     
  3. Marilyn and Polly

    Marilyn and Polly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Yes, you are amazing! No advice from here. But I've got bushels of vines on special delivery for you and your girl.

    Marilyn and Polly
     
  4. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    If I were you, I'd read up on www.catinfo.org in the section about overweight cats. She has an estimate for how many calories per day for a cat. I would keep in mind (and I think Dr. Lisa says it) that weight loss in an overweight cat must be very slow - I want to say it's about 1% of their body weight per week. Dr. Lisa talks about it. You don't want to risk fatty liver developing (literally the fat lost clogs the liver) by having her lose weight too quickly.

    I'd probably also stop the tumeric, just in case it's causing a problem. I don't know anything about giving cats that particular spice, but if you think it might be a problem i'd just stop. She's probably hi this morning because she got into the 30's yesterday. That'll do it to most cats. So the HI may have nothing to do with the tumeric.

    Hang in there! I'm going out of town for the day but will look in on you later when I can. I know what it feels like to not know how to help your little one. :bighug:
     
  5. Rose

    Rose Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Thank you Megan and Marilyn for the well wishes. They were the crutches we needed today. :)

    Julie ... (sigh) you (and so many others here) are such a blessing. y'all are better for my anxiety than any pill in a bottle. (just sayin'.) you know, i've read dr. pierson's cat info link many times over the years and at least a half a dozen in the last three months. her obese cat section was our outline for calculating how much to feed zoey. she has a section there that says if you don't know how much they were eating before (and I didn't) then go by what their average weight should be and then subtract some to lose weight and adjust as needed. I was keeping Zoey around 180 calories (she kept her overweight cat around 180 to lose weight) until about three weeks ago. when we went to the vet at that time, Zoey had lost just a tad over a pound (in 11 days). To me, that seemed too much (She only weighed, before loss, 11.5 pounds). I asked the vet about it and he said that he wouldn't want that rate long term, but that he felt for now it was a good amount of weight and it would be safe to keep up the same feed. Well, I didn't feel it was safe so I upped it at that time by 1 ounce which puts her at about 210 calories. (about 30 calories per ounce - i forget the carbs but we're feeding the lowest friskie's). And you're also raising the same concern that I asked of the vet ... so I don't know if she's underfed and dumping too much. I thought so, but I just don't know. Honestly, if Zoey is not long for this world, then I would rather her go out not being as hungry as she seems, and me managing the sugar, than her always looking for food and then die and me wonder if I didn't starve her to death in a round-about way. So, she's getting an extra half ounce during each cycle (another 30 calories total for the day) and we'll see how that works for the next week. I do hope you're having a good time while you're away today. In our corner of the world it's a Chamber of Commerce Day -- perfect day that would be hard to improve upon. We've spent it with our critters and soaked in all of the new life (baby blue birds being taught to hunt) to recharge our souls.

    I highly recommend everyone take a moment to enjoy nature today. We could all use a deep breath of fresh air.
     
  6. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Well, thank goodness for sunny yellow! :) It matches the spring time over here. Great suggestion of yours to take a breath of the fresh air today.

    Keep weighing Zoey weekly, and you'll get a handle on what is the right amount of food for her. Once she learns to stop bouncing as much (and yes, some black and white girl cats are slow learners here too :rolleyes:), and flattens out, she'll be less hungry. Food experiments take time. I can totally relate to the starving monster in the kitchen. :bighug:
     
  7. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    No help on the how much to feed question, sorry. I wish I did have - we have one who could do with gaining some weight (our 18 year old CKD girl), 2 who are about right and 3 who could do with dropping a little (unfortunately the 3 now include Regan as well as our housemate's 2 as he's convinced she's "missing out" by not getting dry food any more so keeps taking her into his room while I'm not looking and feeding her treats - I really have to convince him he's not doing her any good). I really wish I had an answer, though I can see that the 3 who are overweight are all eating either high carb dry food, too many high carb treats, or both. The low carb wet food does seem to be better for natural weight control, but I'm not sure I could let any of them go hungry if they were begging for food - like you, I tend to feel mean if I don't give a little extra food if they seem hungry even though I know it's not always what's recommended.

    Great news on the no ketones so far today - hopefully that's the last you'll see of them! And looking good on getting back into yellow already after her higher start this morning. Slow and steady now Zoey - you don't need to dive from those yellow numbers today!!
     
  8. Rose

    Rose Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Thanks for the encouragement and stories of experience Wendy and April... priceless stuff and thankful to receive it. :D April ... I'm glad I don't have to worry about a housemate adding to the chaos. Bless you and your patience.

    Zoe has been in a crate for the better part of the day. We've zip tied two together so it's extra roomy for her to walk around in and have her litter box and water/food/bed in there so she's been very comfy as far as being in a crate. I figure her next stop is an overnight stay at a vet's office of some sort and if she's going to be there, she's going to be crated in smaller confines than her present surroundings and maybe with us crating her, we can regulate her activities and keep her from wearing herself out and pulling up and down and jumping off from beds/chairs and the other crazy behavior that she exhibits in her zombie-like missions of getting to food. She's handling it pretty well so hopefully the mandatory rest will help her recovery. She has been out several times and enjoyed the outdoors with us while we were able to have her under our direct supervision. She likes to lie in the shade under the cook shed where the breezes blow. Of course, that's after she makes the rounds under the grills and tables to make sure there's no scraps that need scavenging. LOL

    I want speculate what the night might hold. Will only say that we're ready for whatever may come.

    Have a good evening everyone!
     
  9. Vyktors Mum

    Vyktors Mum Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Yay for no ketones! I wonder if Zoey might have Cushings disease? It's pretty rare in cats but the symptoms can include an enlarged belly and fragile skin and it has been seen in a few diabetic kitties here over the years.
     
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  10. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    It is a little tricky sometimes - he really does mean well and he thinks he's helping, but with something like this it really isn't doing any good at all. He will stop if I can get through to him that it's not good for Regan, just as he stopped leaving his door open when the dry food is out for his cats when I showed him what it did to Rosa's numbers. I just have to be tactful when I tell him - I don't want to upset him when he's really trying to do what he thinks is right.

    I hope getting some enforced rest helps Zoey to feel better. I'm sure wearing herself out isn't helping her recovery, though stopping cats from doing pretty much what they want sometimes does mean confining them to a smaller space. It doesn't sound as though it's worrying her though and her numbers are looking pretty good tonight - no crazy diving for once (anti-jinx)!! :)
     
    Rose likes this.
  11. Rose

    Rose Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    @Vyktors Mum -- yes, I think she has Cushing's disease. I raised this question a month ago and the vet dismissed it. :/ At that time, her skin was not tearing like it is now. I don't know how to read Zoey's labs, but there is something in the labs that made him think that it is not Cushing's ... If anyone is reading and knows how to read labs, if you've got a minute to glance, her lab report is attached to her spreadsheet. Any help/interpretation/clues are appreciated. I hesitated to put her flea medicine on her for the last two months and finally, on 4/21 I relented (vet's advice) and gave her flea treatment. I noted then on her SS that her petechiae became inflamed. I'm hesitant to even take her to the vet to be honest. To any vet. I really feel we're just throwing good money away on bad advice. Surgery doesn't usually extend the life for very long in cats and carries its own set of risks; not to mention the recovery. I'm not sure how much her quality of life would improve. I've ordered some Cushex and it will be here on Tuesday (Amazon ). Linda and Bear Man had some experience with Cushings and she replied to an inquiry several weeks ago, but if my memory hasn't totally failed me, her Bear Man's Cushing's was brought on by steroids/medications and the symptoms abated when she stopped treatment. Zoey's not on any medications other than the flea treatments which will now stop. I'm going to copy this post into today's new thread (5.3) and see if anyone else with Cushing's experience happens to see it.
     
  12. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Everything I can find on Cushing's disease says it's way more common in dogs than cats. I did, however, find this page - most of it does relate to dogs but there is a section at the bottom that explains the differences seen in cats. That specifically states that the usual changes that are seen in blood work for dogs may not exist in cats, particularly the elevated Alk Phos level that is always seen in dogs but often does not occur in cats at all. I wonder if your vet is expecting to see the same blood work changes in a cat that he would see in a dog? I would also think it's a strong possibility that Zoey may have Cushing's based on her physical symptoms. I don't see a cortisol test result on either her urinalysis or her blood work, but I can see the concentrations of the different types of white blood cells would fit with Cushing's as would the raised cholesterol.

    I think I would push the vet for a urine test to check for the cortisol:creatine ratio as that should be fairly easy for them to do and appears to be one of the better ways of checking for Cushing's as a possibility in cats and I don't see any results for that on Zoey's labs. That way you could at least decide whether or not it's worth doing further testing, ultrasounds etc.
     
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