5/8 Oren AMPS=216; +2.25=326; PMPS=384;+3=419;+5=350; Vet visit update

Status
Not open for further replies.

Megan & Oren

Member Since 2015
Yesterday
Possible he went green again late last night, but i couldn't stay up for it.
Not happy with this pattern at all; low at night, bounce during day.

Today we head to vet at 1:00 eastern time. Hopefully she can figure something out. I'm more convinced there is something going on in mouth; he's been rubbing his face more than usual on things. He's been a lot more vocal at night recently too; I think it's cause he's hungry for his mini-meals.
But i guess we have to get the tests for IAA and acromegaly as well to rule things out. :(

I just want to get this little guy on a track to better regulation.
Happy Fri to everyone
 
Sure hope you get some answers. Polly did the dose climb, too. We checked for all the "standard causes"--teeth, infections, etc.--and when all other avenues of possibility closed we did the acro/iaa testing. Polly had reached 7 units and was in the hospital for some never discovered illness. Figured we could do the blood draw for MSU while she was having blood drawn for all the other normal checks.

Answer vines.

Marilyn and Polly
 
Thanks Marilyn;
does the blood sample have to go to MSU for the IAA test? Regular labs don't handle it? Should I bring that information with me. Sorry for all the questions but this is all new and scary to me... Really hoping it's just teeth.... Trying to remain positive and calm...
 
whew, well that was an interesting vet visit! Different woman from last time, mostly I guess I liked her but once again, there was a bit of resistance regarding the home testing w/ human meters and the protocol.
short of things, first things first;
His weight had increased a bit since last visit in March to 8.9 lbs. Good
normal temp
she checked his ears and feared mites, but turned out just a mild bacterial infection. I need to use T8 Keto flush wash to clean them 1x a week, and administer Tresaderm drops 2x a day 12 hrs. apart for 2 wks. (another of his 'came with' and somewhat chronic problem, bad ears!)

she did know about acromegaly, and that is somewhat underdiagnosed and was not averse to testing for it at some point, but wants to rule out other things first. as she put it, not all diabetic cats have acromegaly, but all acromegalitic cats have diabetes! Same with the IAA.

Did draw blood and will do a CBC and what she called a pancreatic snap (now can't remember what that is exactly). Also mentioned possibility in future of pancreatic ultrasound? Because he had some blood work done not that long ago, not rechecking thyroid at this time. Last time a urinalysis was done, which had shown a slightly elevated WBC, but they didn't do a full culture, so they're doing that this time.

they currently do NOT have dental xray capability but are in the process of adding that (she is basically the head of this effort) she couldn't promise exactly when equipment will be in place, but hoped within 2-3 months. She does think he needs a dental, mentioning trouble around one of his top molars, but she wants to get his BG in better shape before doing it, and felt it could wait a bit.

She is very uncomfortable w/ the 6.25 dose right now, considering he was at 3.5 when he was last in on Mar 16. I tried to explain the steady increases via the protocol but she was a little hard to convince of this. She did admit that some cats do need more but she seemed a bit reluctant to think he was a likely IAA candidate. Her argument about the increases was that they were happening too aggressively, and that a given dose should be held for weeks, not days, or the body and organs don't have time to adjust properly. I tried to discuss the depot/shed with her, and she was kind of aware of it, but i could totally sense reluctance on her part to fully embrace all of this. She was skeptical of basing dosing on nadirs especially because of the meter variance and maybe not having enough tests. I showed her my spreadsheet so I don't know how she could think i am not testing enough! I noted that scans of the protocol were in my chart and that if she had a chance it might be good for her to look it over more carefully... guess we'll see...! Always that little bit of getting their back up "we study this in vet school and know all about diabetes"... Sigh. I explained i wasn't in anyway challenging or diminishing her knowledge...

I also tried to explain about the meter variance b/n human and alpha track, and that i am fully aware of the 20% variance on a human meter. She said the manuf. want human readings to read lower, so people pay more attention? So, she really felt that some of his greens in the 50s-60s were scary dangerous because of that 20% variance. I tried to explain that i was carefully monitoring him and that he showed no signs of distress and I was using food to help keep him up etc., as well as the 'feeding the curve' concept. She felt that is more a human diabetic strategy...

also, because my lantus is 5 mo. old (well, not exactly, I got it on Jan 26, so it's really more like 3.5 mos.), but she heard Jan and now it's May, so she thinks 5 mos. She strongly suggested getting a new vial but doesn't want me to go with 6.25 on a new vial. She suggested 4.0 units and ultimately did say "it's up to you of course but....".. Personally, i did have my concerns that perhaps the lantus was degrading since it is getting old. I know others get 6 mo. out of theirs and she was aware of that sometimes as well, but I can't say it hasn't been in my mind that part of why he's losing a bit of momentum could be older lantus...

So, I'm waiting for blood work results tomorrow, and the urine culture is 3-5 days wait unfortunately. This was an expensive visit, and then a new vial of lantus on top of it is really going to hurt. I called around again and it has gone up already since i last got it in Jan. For those who may not know, you can get it at CostCo even if you are not a member there. They currently had the best price of 5 places I called in town. I could go w/ the Marks canadian pharmacy too I suppose, but that's at least another week before I get it most likely.

I'm running out of time to pick up a vial this evening and wonder what others think about me waiting until I get all the test results back before worrying about getting the new vial (probably 3-5 days as I said). She is going to call me tomorrow w/ blood test results.

my head is spinning once again, and though I tried to be prepared and logical in my presentation of information, it still felt a bit like a uphill battle to override her skepticism about "Using the internet" to get knowledge. Sigh. I really wish they would just spend some time on the forum themselves to get an idea of the depth and breadth of knowledge on there. I guess overall she was glad I'm a strong advocate for my kitty and I do get the impression that we can work together. This is so exhausting though!

Oren was a brave little patient as usual and seems no worse for wear on his part.
 
Last edited:
that does sound like an exhausting visit. Having to justify what you're doing just wears a person out. Many people on FDMB just see their vet about everything except dose. You can nod your head at the dose advice and then ignore it.

My gut reaction is there isn't anything wrong with your insulin. I don't think you'd be seeing greens on it if there was. Four months is fine unless something happened to compromise it. Do you see any floaters or threads in the insulin? I doubted my insulin several times - I'd start a new pen (not dropping the dose) and compare with the previous pen/vial. It was always the same, meaning that the insulin was fine. Then I'd go back to the first insulin and go ahead and finish it before moving back to the newer one. You could go ahead and get new insulin and compare the old with the new like I just described. Once in a while we see a difference with new insulin, but not usually.

I think you're ok on the dose as well. That doesn't help you deal with the vet, except that maybe you want to stop talking about the dose with the vet.

I disagree about the teeth. If he has anything visible, chances are very likely that there is more that is not visible. We've see teeth be the issue that keeps a cat from getting regulated more than once. I'd push to get his dental done as soon as you can arrange it. I didn't have availability of a dental x-ray machine although i can see exactly why that would be a good thing. I'm not sure about waiting for that, or going with another vet, or going without it, but i do think if she sees anything, i'd want tje dental done asap.

Yes, the blood sample has to actually be mailed to MSU labs and they do the processing and test. I don't think needing a dental can explain a 6u+ dose.
 
oh, and i wouldn't necessarily suspect iaa. I'd suspect acro. But the test for iaa in addition to the acro test is very cheap, so I'd do both at the same time, just because it's good info to have.

Did I answer all of your questions? If not, let me know.
 
Hi Julie; thanks. yes, it was exhausting. I had hopes for her because she's a bit younger, and thought she might be more receptive. I wouldn't say she was entirely hostile, just skeptical and kinda ran over me a few times... Just to clarify and simplify a little; she's not testing for acro or IAA on this go around yet; she doesn't really suspect either I think...She is first concentrating on ruling out UTI or pancreatitis.

and as far as the dental goes, she was concerned that he's not stable enough w/ BG levels? Hence why she wanted to wait a bit more. She is concerned about him going hypo while under anesthesia; she apparently has a lot of experience and her specialty is dentistry so, I don't know how to react to her advice on this. I felt like if she felt it was critical she'd jump on it?.

Do you know what she meant by a 'pancreatic snap' ?
I am actually getting pretty low on the lantus now anyway, so perhaps I will get a new vial soon, after I get all the bloodwork and urinalysis results back, and perhaps try your test, over a weekend when I can monitor closely.
 
Do you know what she meant by a 'pancreatic snap' ?
There are 2 tests for pancreatitis. One is a "snap" test, done in the vet's office and the results are available quickly (I'm not sure how long) and the other is a Spec fPL. That one is sent to a lab like Idexx and takes a day or two to get back. I've only done the Spec fPL one. I'm sure Marje's Primer on Pancreatitis would elaborate on those tests. It's on the New to the Group sticky, near the bottom in the single topic links.
 
Thanks Sienne; I think i had a copy, but what I brought to the vet last time was definitely the summary version from the FDMB. Perhaps a scientific paper will indeed carry more heft. She indicated we'd be communicating by email and phone more so I will plan to send this PDF to her via email. It's actually good to see it in a formalized setting anway, even for me!
 
:bighug: I feel your exhaustion. I'm very lucky with Vyktors vet, he wasn't sold on how I was treating Vyktor's diabetes to start off with (they had never used lantus) but he did watch and at least realise that it wasn't unsafe and left me to it. He's very impressed with the results we had and now he does listen to my ideas on things and goes off to research them himself :)

I question this vets diabetic knowledge - feeding the curve is a human thing???? It is the same disease! And also her lantus knowledge with her doubt about dosing based on nadir!

Do you have a dental specialists surgery anywhere near where you are? I would be contacting them about a dental. Her comment about worrying Oren will go hypo if she does it is nonsense - that's why you give a half dose or no dose at all prior to surgery. Also if that vet surgery is just now looking at getting equipment to perform dental x-Rays I wonder what other specialist equipment they might be missing. I wouldn't want my kitty being their guinea pig - for want of a better expression!
 
:bighug:

I question this vets diabetic knowledge - feeding the curve is a human thing???? It is the same disease! And also her lantus knowledge with her doubt about dosing based on nadir!

Do you have a dental specialists surgery anywhere near where you are? I would be contacting them about a dental. Her comment about worrying Oren will go hypo if she does it is nonsense - that's why you give a half dose or no dose at all prior to surgery. Also if that vet surgery is just now looking at getting equipment to perform dental x-Rays I wonder what other specialist equipment they might be missing. I wouldn't want my kitty being their guinea pig - for want of a better expression!

actually this place has a lab on site to do some of the routine things that my old vet didn't have; the bloodwork they're running locally, and they did the urinalysis in house last time too (think the culture has to be sent out). They do ultrasound, laser therapy, digital radiology and even acupuncture.

I'm really hoping she just jumped the gun on my discussion of nadirs because I think she thought I was only testing 2x a day (pre shots) and so couldn't trust nadirs w/o more testing. Not sure why she didn't clue in after seeing my spreadsheet. She did seem to be of the opinion that they normally happen mid-cycle, and i said not always! I think she really needs to sit w/ my spreadsheet. unfortunately, i didn't have a printed version (printer went wonky this a.m trying to get it) so i was showing her on my iPad and so it was admittedly harder to see everything in one view..

and yes, i do have access to at least one vet dentistry specialist ..
 
What a tiring visit! I agree with Serryn on seeing if you can find a dental vet specialist. They cost a bit more but give a lot more comfort. So often I've heard the catch 22 of vet not wanting to do dental until better regulated, but cat can't get regulated without a dental. FWIW, for Neko's first dental, her favorite colour was red.

Sorry about the acro/IAA tests, cause now it means they get to charge you for another blood draw. :bighug:
 
Hi Megan I've been interested in your post as a CG with an acrokitty. I totally relate to the problems you are experiencing with you vet. Mine was exactly the same and was horrified at Crystal's high dose and very sceptical about getting advice from the internet. However, she has now come round to admitting that it works and is learning a lot more about acromegaly through Crystal's treatment. Hang in there and listen to the wealth of experience available here. Sending vines for good results.:bighug:
 
thanks all! Wendy; they MIGHT not need to take more blood for the IAA test at least, but yeah, I kind of thought the same thing, 'here we go again'...
After calming down and rechecking a place I'd heard about in town that does low cost surgical services, I discovered they also do dentals! From their website: The cost of a dental at Helping Hands is $175.00 and includes cleaning, polishing, extractions, pain medications and antibiotics. "Cats over 9 years of age require pre surgical blood work for their safety which can be done at our office the morning of the procedure for an additional $50.00." This is a place designed to help people afford expensive treatments rather than opt to PTS their animals. They come highly referred. They don't do diagnostics though, so I need to talk to them about whether I need a complete referral from my vet now, double check that they will do xrays and if they have experience w/ diabetic cats in particular, esp. as far as what pain and anti-biotic meds they use. It might be a way to go though...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top