7 Dec AMPS=221: +2=117: +3=104: +4=110: +5=130: +6=146: +9=272 : PMPS =338: PMPS+2=230: +8=221

Discussion in 'Lantus (Glargine) / Levemir (Detemir)' started by PussCatPrince, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    From what I am gathering, this may be a drop which is not what one wants.

    Tyler got BG tested, his morning meal and his food - Royal Canin renal wet - an hour early which was not intended at all.
    He will be given his B12 : Pain med and blood pressure med shortly with a little of the wet food. This is his mid morning snack and treat if I am about to do this. Otherwise he is given these with his morning meal following his insulin injection .

    I am reading that with Lanctus it is possible to perhaps not be strict with the twice daily only feeding regime. Is that right please?
    If so, then for us we can split the feeds to something more relaxed and what Ty was used to before the diabetes diagnosis at the beginning of September and so the Lanctus insulin injections.

    I may have tracked down some Applaws pouches . One of us will try to check that out during the course of this day.
     
  2. Alicia & Maggie

    Alicia & Maggie Well-Known Member

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    Jun 17, 2017
    That's correct, you can feed multiple small meals throughout the day. Easier on the pancreas. Just be sure to not feed 2 hours before shot time.
     
  3. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Firstly Welcome to LL.:bighug::bighug::bighug:

    When you shoot early with lantus, it can act as a slight dose increase, I would strongly recomend you get a test no later than +3. With such a large drop at +2 it's very possible he will continue to drop as he moves later into the cycle. If he will eat I would give him a snack now.

    As for the meals, feeding more than twice a day can work better, though with Lantus feeding in the latter part of the cycle can put the brakes on the insulin causing his BG to rise significantly before the next PS.
    And as Alicia said above you want to avoid feeding two hours before shot time, that is so you know the number you are shooting is not food influenced.
    I used to feed upto +7, then if George was really hounding me for food, I'd give him a carb free snack, something like poached chicken breast, or freeze dried treats.

    To give you an idea I fed George his main meal at PS then gave him mini meals at +2 +4+6.
     
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  4. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Good job I checked in here on my way out. He will eat. At the moment he has that insatiable appetite thing which was never how he used to be. He even tried to chew a small button on the side of the dishwasher door which he mistook for a treat. He is being given enough food but I am learning that perhaps not the right food to satisfy him .
    I tend to feed the bulk of the morning and less of an evening .

    I'll give him a little snack which will make us both happy. Now is +3 so I'll do that too.

    Thanks guys.
     
  5. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Post up what you get, if he is still dropping at +3 it may be best not to leave him as he could continue dropping for some time yet.
     
  6. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    If you absolutely have to leave, then you may need to abort the cycle by giving him some highcarb food now, and leave some food out for him.
     
  7. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    It dropped further. I have fed him some food with his other meds. That is the renal wet. I don't know what high carb food is. This is my/our first time ever with any form of diet.
    Would the kitten's own wet food be high carb? I need to be mindful of his CKD.

    Cannot leave food out for him as the kitten will eat it.

    Yes. I can phone where I should be to say that I will be late back & then retest in an hour?
     
  8. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    He's a little lower with that 104, but given meter variance, he's mostly flat.

    I think the Royal Canin Renal Support is 16% so if that's what you fed it may well have done the trick and slowed him right up.

    Have you come across this link to a food list, you can search for food, adjust limits to help you choose something that will be suitable for him.
    Are you in NZ?
     
  9. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    When we feed High Carb (which the Renal diet from Royal Canins is) they can wear off after a couple of hours and when that happens their BG can bottom out.

    Since he is flat now at +3, and it's early in the cycle, to be absolutely certain that he is not going to bottom out on you I would want to see his BG rising or still flat at +5 without the influence of food.

    In an ideal world I would want to stay with him till at least then.

    If you can only stay for another hour, don't feed anymore just now, then see where he is at +4, if he is rising sharply (he may bounce from dropping so fast) and bouncing by then you will know he is safe to leave him.
    If he is still flat, you can feed a little more, Renal, which is HC, and even add some extra carbs if you are at all worried by adding a few drops of honey to his food.

    How does that sound as a plan?
     
  10. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Yes. I am in New Zealand. Top of the South Island in a semi-rural location.
    I did the test before I fed him anything.

    edit....
    Ah. Just seen your other post. I have already fed him a little wet renal, snakc size, following the test as his blood pressure med & his B12, his pain med had not yet been given to him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  11. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    So last food at +3 then?
     
  12. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Thanks for the clear explanation and help.
    I managed to get hold of husband which is good as he is not always within reach & who can cover something for me so I can stay today but do extra tomorrow or later tonight.
     
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  13. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Yes. Small snack size wet renal /

    Oops. Should be putting that in comments shouldn't I.
     
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  14. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Yes. Sounds like a plan.
    +4 is 110.
     
  15. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    good job with updating the ss
    You are welcome.

    With feeding the Renal at +3, you may find that his BG will be flat or rising by +4.

    As long as he is not dropping at +4, with hold food and test at +5, that way your +5 will not be food influenced and you can see where he is really at.

    You may want to try and find some food that is low in Phosphorus and low in carbs, my George is also stage 2 ckd, I'm in spain and I've been able to find some food that is good for both, that is widely available through europe.
    With the high carbs in the Renal managing his BG is going to be difficult, and high BG in turn is hard on the kidneys.
    The renal diets are usual high carb and low protein, it was thought that this was the best diet, however, more recent studies have shown that a high quality protein diet is preferable.
    Finding low P and Low carb food is challenging and some here have opted to making their own adding CKD suitable supplements.

    Have you come across this site for CKD has a lot of great info,
    http://www.felinecrf.org/
     
  16. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Cross posted

    He's staying flat and it's still early in the cycle, ideally I would give some LC,
    What brand is the kittens food?
     
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  17. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    You have a couple of options,
    1) with hold food, he may well drop at +5 as the carbs where off
    2) give some more Renal, the carbs will sustain him, but his BG may jump up as the insulin wears off

    Usually I would rather not give HC, but I don't know how you arrived at this dose, so I don't know if there is a chance that 2u is too much insulin for him.

    The ravenous hunger is a sign of high BG but you can also find that dropping BG/low BG can make a kitty hungrier than usual.

    So you may want to err on the side of caution and give a little more renal.
     
  18. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    I'm British. Wanted to emigrate to France but took a wrong turn and ended up in New Zealand.

    Kitten gets Whiskas - wet pouch. I shall be revisiting her diet once I feel confident for Tyler.

    Do you mean the insulin dose? The vet prescribed that.
    If you mean the amount of food per day, then that is also as per the vet practice. It was all originally dry renal with a little wet but as wet is clearly better I have adjusted to wet but the same amount of renal food per day as recommended for his weight.
     
  19. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    LOL that's some wrong turn!

    We moved from Camberley/Surrey to Spain 6 years ago.
    Some of the whiskas o so meaty, is LC, but that's in the UK, I wouldn't trust that it's the same in NZ, we have some aussie members, some who have had kitties with CKD and FD so they may be able to help more with food choices that would be appropriate for your boy.
     
  20. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    I've been having a google on the carb thing.
    I have a tin of pink salmon and also tins of sardines. Would that be better?

    Yes. Big wrong turn. Been in NZ for 14 yrs now and I haven't ruled out a Europe return.

    Heck. It is past midnight for you !
     
  21. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Fish is usually high in phosphorus.

    If you are feeding tinned tuna/salmon, you want to make sure its not in broth/stock as this can have onion/garlic, best if it's not got any added salt and is just spring water.

    at this stage, you might be better sticking to the cat food you have at hand, till you can figure something out.
     
  22. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    When/if you come to change his food to something lower in carb, you should transition slowly as the reduction in carb can dramatically reduce the amount of insulin he needs.

    It's getting late for me, past midnight, I'll hang till your next test, but I have an early start tomorrow, cats are going to the cattery early in the morning, we are off to blighty to see friends and family. I'll try and get some of other members to keep an eye on you both.
     
  23. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    OK will do that alongside the next test in about 10/15 mins

    Ooo. Blighty ! I miss the Northern Hemisphere festive season. Enjoy your trip . :) and thanks for staying up .
    Catterys hereabouts won't take diabetic cats.
     
  24. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    At +5 it is 130.
    I fed the small snack sized wet renal . Poor ears.
     
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  25. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    We are looking forward to mulled wine and mince pies :)

    BFG is in remission now, but I was lucky to have a friend that would give insulin and test him when he was on the juice.
    That's a bit more of a bump now, you could leave him till +7.
    But given that we don't have much data for him, to be safe I'd get a +6, my gut says this is the rise starting now.

    How did you get to the 2u? Is it just the initial dose the vet suggested? Or did you work your way up to it?

    He's had a fair bit of food, 16% carb or so (I believe that's what's in the renal) he's been in safe numbers, but it's taken a fair bit of food to keep him flat, he's probably happy he's been getting all this grub:rolleyes:
     
  26. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    I've sent a message to some experienced members to keep an eye out for you.

    If you need help urgently, you can change the thread title, and shout HELP!!, Use the ? Prefix, or the ,911, if he were to drop into dangerous numbers, that will catcheoples attention.

    Apply gentle firm pressure too his ears, it will help minimise bruising, I also used a cold/wet cotton pad.
     
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  27. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Oooo again. Lovely. Me envious a little bit? 'Course not. ;)

    OK. Will keep on keeping on with the pokes. Yes. Tyler thinks his boat has come in.

    It is the dose the vet initially stated at the beginning of September and has stayed with . Tyler has been tested by the vet for fructosamine levels 3 times in the 3 months & is what the vet considers 'stable' . His CKD is also considered 'stable' .

    It was the neuropathic gait and the odd appetite that had me seeking out knowledge and information. The vet sees geriatric and arthritis as the cause but I'm one with Tyler & know him well. I saw nerve damage & said as much but the vet thought otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  28. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    +9=272.

    Is this what is called a 'bounce' ?
     
  29. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Probably, but you'll know more later in the cycle.

    His body probably hasn't been down near normal numbers for quite some time

    Slow it down Ty.....step away from the trampoline!!
     
  30. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Rats. I missed the + 10 test as people visited and I lost track of time. :( Time now 7.20 pm Thursday.

    Yes @Chris & China . It is a very hard learn which I hope will suddenly click into place BUT I do think this is why the wobbly gait and other things have been happening.

    No idea what normal levels are supposed to be. I have just said to husband that I think it may mean 'even' for him & once controlled then look to make 'lower' somehow.

    He's been like a dead dog all day but is livelier now, as in awake.
     
  31. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Normal blood glucose numbers for cats are 50-120 so that's where we are working towards getting them as much as possible.
     
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  32. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Morning :coffee::coffee:
    just popping in before I take the troop to the cattery.


    I shouldn't worry about the +10, it's late in the cycle, give him a break till pmps.

    He may be bouncing, or it may be the end of duration, time will tell.

    Nonfood now till pmps.

    Normal levels on a human meter for a cat are between 50-80. The blues he had today are normalish and he is probably below the renal threshold(that's the point where they stop excreting glucose in their urine), in the high yellows he's probably above the renal threshold.

    For his kidneys you want him below the renal threshold as much as possible, the exact point varies from cat to cat, you can check yourself ok for by checking for glucose in his urine with test strips that humans use.

    Fructosamine is not avoid way to assess the dose as it gives you an average overview of BG.
    Home testing is a better way to assess and adjust dose. I came to the board because !y ver didn't have much experience, she was supportive of my decisions, but basically I managed to get George regulated and eventually into remission by following the protocol here and with the advice and support of the members here.

    I really think that you need to revisit the food question for him, that will give you a much better chance at levelling him out, otherwise you are fighting the carbs.

    Imagine a diabetic that's eating cake all the time, imagine how difficult it would be for them to manage their insulin needs;)
     
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  33. Bron and Sheba

    Bron and Sheba Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2015
    If Tyler won't eat a raw home made diet, do you think he would eat a cooked home made diet?
    Here is a link to the diet I fed Sheba. Instead of the raw food you could cook all of it. You could use chicken and mince for a start. You would need to use supplements. The details are here. The carbs would be almost zero and the phosphorus level is not high.
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/home-prepared-diet-of-crd-cats.150441/
     
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  34. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Hi Bron!!:bighug::bighug::bighug:
    Glad you stopped by, I was hoping to pm you, as I thought with you being in Australia you might have some helpful suggestions with food especially vas Sheba also had renal issues, but you beat me to it:)
     
  35. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Early morning ladies. Tiz 4.45am here and as I'm awake I thought I would BG test Tyler. It is a yellow 221. I've had to send for some more strips , so do hope those have been couriered.

    I'll have a read later on thank you Bron . Hope you are starting to enjoy your break Gill.

    M
     
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