Aj newly diagnosed please help

Our cat AJ just recently turned 5 years old in july and got really sick. Was drinking a lot of water and peeing extreme amounts multiple times a day and avoiding the litter box. Was a 10lb cat and now is 6lbs. Used to be super strong, now really weak. Took him to the vet and his blood glucose first tested at 480. We were told it was diabetes and prescribed novolin N and started at a dose of 2 units twice a day every 12 hours. We take him to the vet to get his levels checked every 3 days. Have him on one cup of hill’s prescription diet digestive weight management dry food per day. First test at dr on 2 units showed improvement at 380 blood glucose. Upped it to 3 units and he tested at 420. Upped it again to 5 units and today he tested at his highest 630 blood glucose. He ate his food happily at first and now he refuses to eat again. The vet told us to up the dose to 7 units twice a day today which would be 14 total per day. What is a normal dosage for cats on novolin N? I’m half way worried that he is getting too much and the blood sugar is spiking to not go into hypo. But maybe the doctor is right and he needs a much higher dose than thought? I read on this forum somewhere that someone’s cat was on a dosage of 24 units a day but I don’t know if thats a special case or what. I’m worried for my cat. Please give any advice or input you have , thank you so much. Doctor also is thinking of switching to a different more expensive insulin $120/bottle but didnt give the name in the next few weeks. Its been really rough lately. My boyfriend lost his job and i only get 18 hours a week and this all just happened at once so being at 14 units a day on novolin N already would mean buying a bottle every week which would be $112 and then the food which is $24 and how much he goes through litter because of the pee and pee pads we have to buy to go around the box that we put where he pees and the vet visits every three days is costing us $200+/mo so even now we can barely eat trying to treat him. So im worried if we switch to the more expensive insulin and he ends up needing a higher dose even on that, we won’t be able to afford to care for him which is something i really dont want to think about but it may come to trying to give him to an organization that can care for him eventhough i wouldnt want to lose him But we are also having a wedding and trying to start a family so itsreally hard. Please let me know what you think.

 

oh me oh my -- we have heard this story before ... the sad thing is that few vets have experience with dealing with a diabetic cat 24/7 -- they are working with what little information they learned in school, and what they were told by manufacturers' representatives

so listen to those here who have been dealing 24/7 with their sugarcats for YEARS .. and those of us who are accumulating knowledge too

my opinion, and it's only an opinion from someone still learning -- the vet is prescribing a dose that's likely too high for your cat, and prescribing an insulin which is not optimal for cats

the vet has not encouraged you to go get your own glucometer, learn to test at home, where the stress doesn't artificially inflate the BG values, and where YOU, not the vet, is in control, as it should be IMHO ... hope you can do just that, and soon

we started out on Vetsulin, which was actually developed for dogs, works fine for them, is a bit harsh for cats -- transitioned to Lantus, which may be the "more expensive" insulin your vet is referencing -- and which is MUCH better and more gentle and more likely to lead to regulation or even remission

most of the expensive prescription foods recommended (and sold by) the vet, are, as one member put it, "expensive garbage" -- many of us feed Fancy Feat classic pate canned food, far less expensive, far lower in carbohydrates, and readily available -- there are many other very good canned foods suitable for diabetic cats

stick with us, several members will be giving you links to organizations which may help with the financial aspects too

 

oh -- be sure to read the yellow stick INFO for new members -- gives instructions on how to make it easier for us to help you out

 

AJ reminds me so much of my girl when she was first diagnosed. She did great on 6 units of insulin 2x a day, until she didn’t and we ended up in the emergency vet because I was actually overdosing her and didn’t realize because I was not testing her blood sugar at home.

When you take your kitty to the vet, they are stressed which raises their blood sugar and usually causes them to be started on a dose that’s too high. So then their body tries to compensate by releasing stored sugar so when you take a reading, you see the blood glucose is high, which causes the vet to raise the insulin dose, and that’s how you get to such a high dose.

The food the vet prescribed you is not only expensive, it’s not good for diabetic kitties. Sophie started out on it and I spent a lot of money and it did not help her one bit. They do best on food that is less than 10% carbs. Friskies and fancy feast pates are much cheaper, and great for diabetics! BUT you should not switch foods, especially when your cat is on such a high dose, without testing blood glucose at home, because changing to a low carb diet and cause lower blood sugar and reduce the amount of insulin needed.

Testing at home is MUCH cheaper than the vet, and is way more accurate. If you are in the US, you can get a human meter for fairly cheap. The insulin your vet prescribed is also short lasting, so it’s not ideal. It sounds like they may want to switch you to Prozinc, which is more expensive but if AJ gets down to needing a lower dose (which I really suspect he does), it will last for many many months.

 

Thank you! I’ve been wanting to test at home but the vet has been insisting that we bring him in until his blood glucose is at 200 but i read the stress can give false readings as well. I was also shocked that he prescribed insulin for canines and dry food because the forums say otherwise. How do I convince my vet that i need to home test and switch to wet food and that i’d like a different insulin? Also could i get a link to yellow sticky you reference. Do they sell Lantus in US? I live in kansas. Thanks again!

 

Thank you! So your cat was on a high dose and reading high blood glucose but was actually getting too much insulin like i thought? How much is prozinc normally and how many units are you giving sophie? Just wondering for reference

 

I know it sounds counterintuitive, but you don’t need your vets permission to do any of those things except change the prescription! You can home test and switch the food without their permission. I’m not sure how to get them to change the prescription - maybe just ask and see if they will? There are published studies saying cats do better on lantus. It is sold in the US but since it’s a human insulin the price is outrageous - $300 a vial. Most members here buy it from Canada, where it’s much cheaper.

Sophie was actually switched from Prozinc to vetsulin (a worse insulin), but she was down to 1 unit, then 0.5, then 0.25, and for now she is in remission Most cats need less than 3 units 2x a day I think. Now of course some need more than that, but 7 definitely seems like too much, especially if AJ doesn’t have any other conditions

 

Where to start ...

The dose is far too high. The protocol here is to start with 1 unit of insulin (any type of insulin) and increase slowly by 0.25 units at a time. Increasing by 1 unit means that you might skip over the correct dose. Sometimes too much insulin looks like too little. 7 units with one test every 3 days is a dangerous situation. Your cat could crash.

You are feeding a high carb food. There is no prescription food that is low carb with the exception of canned Purina DM (diabetic management). Fancy Feast pates and Friskies pates are low carb and do not take a big chunk out of your pocket book.
This said, do not switch foods until you are home testing. Switching to a low carb food can change insulin needs dramatically. You don't want to end up in the ER in the middle of the night with a hypoglycemic cat.

One test at the vet is not enough to make any judgment about insulin needs. It costs you time and money.
Buy a human glucometer and learn to test at home. It will save your cat's life. We can help you learn how to do it. A lot of people here use the Relion Prime. You can sometimes get a free coupon for it. I'm in Canada so I'll let someone from the US chime in on that. The vet may want you to buy a pet glucometer. That's fine. They are more expensive and the strips are way more expensive that those for a human glucometer. You will go through more strips than you can imagine.

Lantus is a good insulin for cats. It is very gentle. Novolin N is a harsh insulin initially designed for dogs who, well, are not cats. Lantus looks more expensive but it isn't. You can get a prescription for Lantus from your vet and get the Lantus from a Canadian pharmacy. I believe it's US$150. That will last you at least a year.Again, we have all the information about how to do that. Also, check out the Supply Cupboard on the forum. Lantus is sometimes available there.

Unregulated cats drink a lot of water to help their bodies get rid of the extra glucose. Once your cat is regulated, that will slow down and eventually go back to near normal.

It's your cat. You hold the cards. You do not need your vet's permission to home test or feed. If your vet is not willing to work with you, find a new vet. In all honesty, I'd start phoning around and try to find a vet that knows more about diabetic cats than the vet you have know.

 

Hi and welcome to FDMB, Candy and Sarah have provided some good information, and they are right. The "prescription" is not good for any sugar cat, not any cat really. But as Sarah said DON'T abruptly transition to a low carb all wet diet especially with the huge dose of Novolin you are injecting.

I just read your response, you DON'T need permission to home test!! You don't need permission to change the diet, the dry food is way too high in carbs. I hate to tell you this, but I don't think your vet is very well educated in Feline Diabetes.

Let's take this one step at a time, ok? Go to Walmart and buy a ReliOn Prime glucose meter and strips, the meter costs about $10, and a box of 50 strips another $10. A box of 26 or 28 gauge lancets..it's up to you whether you want to use a lancing device or not. It's not necessary to pay a vet to test your cat, we all test our cats at home to find out what the blood sugar level (BG for blood glucose), you save $$ and a lot of stress for kitty which will elevate the BG anyway, sometimes significantly.

Click on this link: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/ for videos and tips on testing blood sugar.

Now, the Novolin. It's a hard hitting, fast acting but short acting insulin. Yes, it's cheap, but it's not the best insulin you can use. And the dose is huge, and is probably causing your kitty to "bounce" :
A bounce happens when numbers drop quickly, drop a lot (like from 454 to 91) or drop low. Your cat's liver and pancreas
react to the change in numbers by dumping a stored form of glucose along with counter regulatory hormones
into the bloodstream. These cause numbers to spike upward.

There are some kitties on the board that are "high dose" kitties due to other health conditions, but for the time being, let's assume that the dose is too high and your poor cat is on the trampoline. I am going to recommend that you not continue to dose that high, read the sticky here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/beginners-guide-to-novolin-humulin-nph.186097/

Best steps forward, start testing as soon as possible, take that insulin dose down to 1 Unit, then after you are testing, then get some Fancy Feast classics, or Friskies pates and begin gradually to change the diet.

Create signature and set up the spreadsheet so we can see what's happening.
1. Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.
2. Another thing that will help us help you when you get started BG testing at home is to set up a spreadsheet like the one we use here. You will see how the trends and patterns emerge, and members can review his/her progress before offering suggestions or advice:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

I know you have been handed a lot, but that huge dose of Novolin scares me to death, and might cause a hypoglycemic event, which could result in the death of your cat. We want to avoid that!

 

My boyfriend gave him the 7 units of novolin this morning. Can we drop down to 1 unit of novolin tonight at 930pm when he is supposed to get a shot again? Would that be better than giving him the 7 units again tonight? Cant buy the glucose meter until tomorrow because my boyfriend left for work and i can not drive unfortunately. But we can get the meter tomorrow morning. I dont think i can make a spreadsheet because i only have my mobile phone? But i will change the signature. Thank you for all the help! What should his glucose read before switching him to the wet food?

 

Thank you so much! I’m not sure if i can get lantus in kansas as pharmacies are limited but i will look into it for sure!

 

Thank you! I’ll have to look into the different insulins and see what is available in my state. So happy for you and sophie!

 

Here are three links that you need to read
In an emergency

• How to treat HYPOS - THEY CAN KILL! Print this Out!!
• jojo and bunny's HYPO TOOL BOX

• New? Seeing Low Numbers? How You Can Help Us Help You

Hopefully, you will go to Walmart and pick up the testing supplies, you can check the HYPO TOOL BOX list and get whatever you don't have at home right now, like a couple of cans of Friskies food with gravy. Better prepared than not and it isn't expensive.

 

Hi there! Welcome to the forum! So a lot of stuff to cover, you've got a great start from other members already. I'll try to keep everything simple, I often struggle with information overload so I try to keep things manageable for others.

1. Food
We've all started with the prescription food. My own vet recommended the Purina DM dry, $40 for a 6lb bag is outrageous. ALL dry cat food is too high in carbs for a diabetic cat. Diabetics need 10% or less, so most of us use Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies Pate. I like to buy mine from Amazon because they go on sale quite often compared to the grocery stores. Your vet is not stupid recommending it, just uneducated like mine was. I actually emailed my vet this chart which lists the carb amounts in wet food. I emailed it because when I brought my cat in for a glucose curve and brought Fancy Feast with me, they told me I couldn't use it and she wouldn't get regulated on it. I'm not one to challenge someone with a degree when I have none, but I wasn't going to back down when it came to my cat's health. You are your cat's advocate!

2. Insulin
There's a few different kinds, mainly NPH (Novolin N), Vetsulin, Prozinc, Lantus, and Levemir. NPH and Vetsulin are short duration and only last 6-10 hours in cats. Not saying they won't work, for some cats they do, but most of the time you need to switch to a longer-lasting insulin. Lantus is the crowd favorite but Prozinc and Levemir are just as good! I myself went from NPH to Vetsulin to Prozinc. I order Prozinc online from Chewy.com, Lantus users order from a Canadian Pharmacy where it's MUCH cheaper than in the US.

3. Dosage
Usually cats are going to be in the 1-3 unit twice daily range. Anything above is usually an underlying condition that requires more, such as acromegaly. This isn't common though, so your cat is more than likely being overdosed. My own cat was up to 5 units twice a day within a month, this was because my vet didn't understand bouncing...a natural phenomenon where the cat is being given TOO MUCH insulin and the body yanks the blood sugar up to protect itself...making it look like the insulin is ineffective. Thus upping the dose. Cats should have increases of only .25 units at a time, never full units and never so quickly.

4. Home Testing
I see you're from Kansas so you're in luck! Go to Walmart and get yourself a Relion Prime meter, the starter kit is $9. You will need size 26G lancets for poking ($1-$2), a lancing device ($5, though some people prefer to poke by hand and don't use it, it's up to you!), and Relion Prime testing strips ($9 for a bottle of 50). Pick up some vaseline and neosporin while you're at it. Cotton balls/pads to protect your hand and/or a rice sock to warm the ear. (I just use a rice sock for both) When you are ready to learn how to home test we can show you videos and walk you through it.

Testing at home is a lot more helpful - it saves on money going to the vet (I spent over $800 my first month on vet bills alone from all the vet visits when you can just do it at home!) - and helps you see what your cat is doing day to day and help you adjust the dosage and prevent any scaries from happening.

 

Since lantus is a human insulin, your pharmacies should have it, it will just be crazy expensive lol. If your vet will write you a prescription for it, you can use the Canadian pharmacy. Prozinc is for cats and is available on chewy.com for usually much cheaper than what your vet will sell it for. I know it’s overwhelming, but it gets easier!! We’re neighbors, im in Oklahoma

 

You should be able to get Lantus in Kansas. It is a very common human insulin. It is expensive.
Read this link. This is a reputable business with excellent service. Many people here buy from them: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/buying-insulin-from-canada.203498/#post-2257142
Also the Supply Closet has Lantus available at the moment: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/supply-closet-for-sale-or-free.15/

 

good, you are reading the information here -- it's a ton of things to understand and remember when you are stressed out and wanting only to do the best for your cat; it's okay for you to go look at the spreadsheet (may be abbreviated SS) in the signature of any of us posting -- sometimes a visual presentation makes more sense than black words on white background

there are videos showing testing methods, some for injecting, and some just for fun

there are forums here for each type of insulin (some are grouped together since they act similarly)

good news, as AJ's blood glucose comes down, the peeing everywhere will stop, he will stop drinking huge amounts of water (it helps to add water to his food), the diabetic side effects will slow down, you will have a healthier cat who may need insulin for quite a while, but you will have saved a life

 

All insulins are available in Kansas, Lantus and Levemir are used for humans, Prozinc is available at Chewy.com. But you will need a prescription from the vet for those insulins.

If you can't set up the spreadsheet yourself, then start a conversation with @Marje and Gracie or @Chris & China (GA) and they will respond with some questions and set it up for you. I had to do this when I began too. You can create the Google account on your phone,
https://accounts.google.com/signup/v2/webcreateaccount?flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=SignUp

then when it's all set up you can enter testing and insulin data on your phone, I do it all the time.

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Thank you all for the information! I’m glad to have the support and hear that there are options!
If Aj got 7 units of of novolin at 930am, can i drop him down to 1 unit at 930pm and be okay?
I cant get the meter until tomorrow and i’m worried

 

We will look at testing results when you get them, then you can begin to start adding the low carb wet food to his diet, paring down the dry bit by bit.

Do you have any honey, Karo syrup or maple syrup in the house, just in case his blood sugar drops too low and he becomes lethargic, or other hypo symptoms happen? All you can do is be watchful today, see if he's eating/drinking/peeing and not unusually lethargic or having convulsions (Read the Hypo instructions) and hope he will be ok.

I am tagging experienced members about dosing tonight, I don't know what to recommend right now.
@Marje and Gracie
@MrWorfMen's Mom
@Bron and Sheba (GA)

 

Fortunately there is a grocery store a ten minute walk away that i can go get honey at, thank you so much

 

Thank you @Idjit's mom for the tag.

At this point, we don’t really know how much insulin he needs and that’s why hometesting is so vitally important. The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) recommends hometesting; if your vet’s clinic was “certified” by them, one would think he’d be on board with hometesting.

Do you have any idea what caused him to become diabetic? Was there a UTI, dental infection, steroids, or has he just been on a solely dry food, high carb diet?

Is he eating well and acting normal? You said he was drinking a lot. Is he still?

One of the things we keep our eyes open for with diabetic cats is diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). This occurs when a cat has an infection, isn’t getting enough insulin, and doesn’t have enough calories and fluid. The first thing that happens is the kitty develops ketones.

Since we have no real data for AJ, then we need to be a bit cautious on the dose. If you can get some urine ketone strips when you go to Walmart, then you can test his ketones at home by catching a little urine when he squats to pee and then dipping the strip into the urine for 15 seconds (no more or less) and then compare it to the chart on the bottle.

It’s reasonable to take his dose back to 1u twice a day as long as he’s eating and drinking because a cat developing DKA won’t do either. But the caveat is also that you should be testing his BG at home and also testing his ketones daily. With Novolin N, we can ramp the dose up quicker if we need to; it’s harder to do with Lantus or Levemir as they don’t pull down high numbers.

If you can provide a few answers to the above questions, it would help us confirm that it’s ok to drop the dose back tonight.

Also......if you need any help with the SS, please let me know now as I can do it for you in a couple minutes but I’ll need info from you. We are headed to Scotland in a couple days for three weeks so I’ll need to get on this for you right away while I have the time.

I just want to correct this. We don’t start considering high dose conditions or recommend testing for them until the kitty is at 6u bid. Over the last 9.5 years, I’ve seen cats need a little over 5u bid and not have a high dose condition. Second, the high dose conditions are more common than you (or most vets) realize. We now know that 1 in 4 diabetic cats have acromegaly. At this point, I’m certainly not saying AJ does; just from reading the intro, it sounds just like what @Red & Rover (GA) stated.....too much insulin and kitty is bouncing.

 

I just re-read your first post and you said AJ wasn't eating, this is concerning and you need to keep an eye on him. Do you have any canned food there at home that maybe he ate before? He needs food on board with that insulin, even if it's the high carb gravy style, he needs to eat! If you are going to the store, pick some up and get some food and water (make a soupy serving) into him. Keep us posted on whether he is eating or not please.

 

Good catch! I missed that.

Is AJ not eating because he doesn’t feel well or is he being picky? I’d definitely take Lou’s (Idjit’s Mom) suggestion and see if he will eat his old food or any other canned food. It’s important we know this before we drop the dose way back (see my post #22).

 

He ate his old food just fine til he got sick which was purina indoor dry food and now he is on hill’s dry food chicken flavor which he gobbled down when he was on 2 units of insulin but ever since they started uping the insulin he barely eats 1/4 of a cup when he supposed to eat 1 cup. Going to get honey and some frisky pate wet food now

 

Since AJ is/has been eating high carb food, I recommend getting the gravy style just for right now, keeping things balanced more, and it's more appealing to cats. We can work on the pates later, OK?

 

Actually got the fancy feast classic pate just now

 

Sorry i didnt see your post until now and already purchased pate since it was recommended earlier. I got four cans however since i thought he may need more?

 

That's ok, why don't you see if he will eat a little bit, then maybe add just a little honey. Since he got the 7 units this morning, that is working to lower the BG and low carb food will just lower it more. I don't want him to hypo, and we can't tell because you haven't started testing yet. He might even eat some dry with a little pate topping ...without honey. Try offering a piece or two dipped in the wet food/water mix?

Sweetie, he just isn't feeling too well with all the BG ups and downs, but we are going to work with you on this.

 

When was this morning's shot given and how many hours has it been since?
Sorry to be bombarding you with a lot of questions and information. It's just that the 7 units is a high dose and we want to make sure your little guy is safe until the dose wears off.

 

Mixed it with a little dry food and honey and he gobbled it up. Thank goodness.

 

The shot was given at 930am, its been 4.5hrs since. Was advised to give his next shot at 930pm 12 hours apart but 1 unit instead of 7.

 

Ok, let's not overload him with the sugar though, you can offer the dry/wet mix and leave out the honey. Just keep offering small amounts more often. We don't want to overload his tummy with food, especially since he hasn't been eating so well.

 

I'd add a drop or two of honey if he doesn't eat the dry. Novolin drops fast but the effect can last for some time.

 

I need to go out for a bit.
Continue to post with questions, comments, whatever. We can help you get your cat stabilized and help you save money in the long run.

 

You have had a great deal of information provided to you today and it's been a bit stressful for you, I have no doubt.

Just to summarize:

ASAP get your ReliOn Prime glucometer, strips and lancets 26 or 28 gauge, you probably have cotton balls or cosmetic pads and Vaseline in the home, maybe even some Neosporin Pain Relief ointment, not cream. You don't have to buy cotton balls or cosmetic pads, you can use a folded tissue or paper towel to "back" the ear you are poking for a blood drop, then to gently compress the "poke" site to help prevent bruising.
Also, buy Ketosix, to sample urine for ketones. The bottle I bought was about $11 or $12. More on how to get the sample later. You let me know when you are ready for that information, OK?

Start getting AJ used to testing procedure, choose a testing station that is comfortable for both of you and has good lighting. We use bribes or rewards at testing time. Take AJ to testing site, offer a treat (like a small bit of poached or baked unseasoned chicken, a nibble of lunch meat, a tiny bit of that pate or something he really likes) rub and stroke his ears, pet and cuddle and tell him how wonderful he is, and offer another treat. Do this several times a day.

Start a conversation (a PM - private message) with Marje & Gracie so she can get that spreadsheet set up for you. She's leaving for Scotland soon and trying to get ready for her trip, and has limited time right now.

Things are going to fall into place, and you are going to get lots and lots of help and support. It's overwhelming at first, but we have your back and we want AJ to feel good and healthy again, as much as you do.

 

I will be getting the testing supplies and messaging information to get spread sheet set up tomorrow afternoon. Thank you all for the information and idjit’s mom for the summarization! Will update here again if anything happens and also with how tomorrow goes and if i need help with testing. Thanks so much again! I was so overwhelmed and worried, feels like i can breathe again and i’m ready to get aj on track so much.

 

My vet shoved needles and insulin at me, said 2 units 2x per day and to purchase the pet glucose meter. I now feel lucky that he left me on my own, because within a day or so of blindly giving insulin I found this site. Another day of reading and rereading and I made my trip to Walmart for a meter. Watched vids. Realized I needed to switch to wet food. After a couple of days of that, I found wet food my cat would eat. Her BG became instantly lower, but still variable. Since then, my kitty might be in remission (no insulin for 4 days now!)

I trust the people here who deal with diabetic cats 24/7 for years. Meter, wet food, reading, posting questions and getting dosage advice. That's a *lot* to do, but will get AJ on the road to feeling better. Diabetes is marathon, not a sprint. AJ is very cute.

 

I'd like to ask you about the dry food you are giving. You said you were feeding 1 cup a day and now he is only eating 1/4 cup. For a cat that should be 10 lbs, IIRC, 1/4 to 1/3 cup a day is recommended unless it is huge kibble that they say helps for dental. Do you have the bag still to double check? 1 cup seems way too high, and I would hate for you to be worrying about him not eating enough if he actually is.

When glucose is too high, the cells are actually being starved, which often shows up as the ravenous appetite. As glucose levels begin to normalize, cats tend to need less food to maintain their weight. That *could* be part of why he is eating less.

 

Lantus is a very common human insulin. You won’t have trouble finding it, it’s just expensive.

 

The dry food i’ve been feeding him is hill’s prescription diet digestive/weight management, he is 6lbs on a good day and can see every bone in his body. Picture i’m using is from month ago before it became obvious and he was diagnosed. The bag says 5/8 of a cup to help gain weight for 6lb cat and even when he was eating before insulin was up, he was not gaining so the vet suggested getting him to 1 cup per day. And as of late he barely has been eating 1/4th of a cup which isnt even half of the recommendation for cats to lose weight if using the food for that. I know he was 630 blood glucose at the vet this morning and not under 380 for long time and mostly tested in 500s at vet though. I will be buying a meter to test myself tomorrow though so we will see. I hope you are right about his levels though, he should really be eating more for his health, it worries me that he is so fragile now.

 

My

My cat was underweight too. Now he has gained weight and strength. Dry food is bad for cats for a lot of reasons, but it’s especially bad for diabetics. Many people feed fancy feast classic. The gravy flavors are too starchy. I look for foods with no starchy foods in the ingredients. No potatoes, peas, beans, rice, tapioca etc. some gums are ok for diabetics, like xanthan gum. Vets just sell food that pet food reps give them to sell. You can make a better choice. Be sure to lower the insulin dose when you change food.

 

I’m glad to hear that your cat has gained! We got some fancy feast classic pate earlier today and will be lowering the insulin dose also. The dry food is just what our vet recommended so we didn’t know it was bad until someone recommended the wet food.

 

You've gotten so much good advice here, so I just wanted to jump in and say kudos to you for taking in so much information and being so open to it. I know some people aren't! It's scary at first, but the people here will guide you well. You are so strong and your family and AJ are going to get through this, I promise. You got this!

 

Remember that if we have any concern about ketones or DKA, we go for calories; that’s more important than carbs.

Also....if you need my help for the SS or want me to just do it for you, today is better. Tomorrow and Sunday are really, really busy for me as we leave on Monday. Pls just send me a private message by clicking on “Marje and Gracie” to the left and then “start a conversation”.

 

I'm around too so if Marje isn't available, I'd be happy to set up your spreadsheet for you.

 

if you have a crockpot, buy boneless skinless chicken thighs, stew them in the pot, basically no carbs, though some fat, it's letting my underweight cat slowly gain weight back to his normal one -- I leave one of the thighs out for him to eat overnight -- I freeze them in small individual containers so they keep

 

Ok, that is great. Please do keep us updated on how little AJ is doing, even if something different doesn't happen. I would like to know if he continues to eat or not at least, please. He's a very cute precious boy kitty. Most of our kitties get several small meals a day, and unregulated sugar cats aren't able to utilize food very well and they are hungry. Feeding more often keeps them a little more balanced and tummies settled.

You probably will feel overwhelmed for awhile, that's pretty usual. Yes, please remember to breathe, a definite step in the right direction. Don't get discouraged if you don't see immediate miraculous results, mostly it's just one step at a time and figuring out what a cat is going to do. We have a couple of sayings here: "Feline Diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint" and ECID "every cat is different". They are true words. And if you think of other things, jot them down and post when you can.

You can tag a member so that they get a notification and won't miss your post. Just type the @ and then start typing the member's user name. A little menu should pop up and you can make your selection.

 

Thanks everyone! I’m glad i came here when i thought something was off about what the vet was recommending. I went and got the meter and tested him this morning at home and his blood glucose was 291 the lowest its ever been! We are at 1 unit of the novolin N and have him eating two cans of classic fancy feast pate with a little dry food mixed in for now. He is feeling so much better today, huge difference!

 

Will be trying to test his ketones later today as well

 

Excellent. Been watching for an update. I am at the blood bank right now, not on my laptop, so I can't bring up my file of info and links. When I get home...about another 1-1 1/2 hour, I will find info on how to try to get the urine sample and post. So very happy AJ is doing better..

 

Okay, i’ll be looking out for that! Thank you

 

He can have small frequent meals or snacks if you're doing two main feedings. He's probably going to stay pretty hungry until the BG is regulated.

 

My advice for now, go back and read through this thread. You were given a lot of info yesterday, a lot! So going back over stuff when you are a bit less stressed might be helpful.

 

Most likely, you saved your cat's life. Well done. Take a bow.

Feed him more if he's hungry. Just (during this start over) pick up the food 2 hours before shot time so that the preshoot reading is not food influenced and you get a proper read of his numbers.

From the Yellow Stickie for Novolin: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/beginners-guide-to-novolin-humulin-nph.186097/
The sequence for Novolin is:

• It's a good idea to feed your cat an hour before giving insulin. This is to ensure there is food in the cat’s system for when the insulin starts to work, and to help ensure that the BG doesn’t drop too fast or too low. Not all cats will experience a fast BG drop with N/NPH, but until your testing data shows otherwise, it is wise to assume that this may be the case with your cat.
• The sequence should be: 1. Test BG. 2. Feed. 3. Wait for an hour. 4. Give the shot.
• If your cat is known to sometimes regurgitate her food, waiting that hour will also give some assurance that she is likely to keep her food down.

1. Test - to see if the number is high enough to shoot
2. Feed - to make sure your cat will eat and has enough food on board to handle the Novolin
3. Wait an hour - to make sure the food stays down (no scarf and barf)..
4. Shoot.

According to the Yellow Stickie for Novolin, you do not want to see the cat's numbers drop below 100. That is the take action number. The hypo links are in post #13 of this thread.

I suggest you read through the thread I mentioned above. It is chock full of good information. I'm going to take @MrWorfMen's Mom for you. She has a better understanding of how Novolin and Vetsulin works.

 

So glad you were able to test him! It took about 3 weeks to get to the point where Sophie wouldn’t try to tear me apart, so you’re doing awesome!

 

I’ve been letting him snack on dry food between the two meals too. What would you recommend to give him as a snack inbetween though?

 

I followed that sequence this morning and will continue to do so, thank you! Will look into the novolin stickie

 

Oh wow! i’m glad he is very good with shots and everything as long as i’m petting him and saying he is a good boy, he sits really still. I hope that means he understands that i’m only trying to help.

 

anything that is pure protein -- PureBites is one brand, Cat Man Doo is another, you may find the protein snacks in the dog aisle instead of cat aisle -- you can get bonito flakes at an Oriental grocery (human food so cheaper and bigger bag), some may also carry small dried fish (sardine, herring, anchovy) -- you can also stew chicken at home in your crockpot with no additional seasonings, I get boneless skinless thighs, after cooking I separate them into small containers and freeze, so I can defrost one helping at a time -- or let it defrost by itself overnight as the cat licks or bites at it

 

What is the lowest number that i should give him insulin at if he shouldn’t go below 110?

 

Okay i’ll look out for those snacks! Really wish we had an asian grocery market around me

 

ECID -- every cat is different -- so it depends on how AJ has reacted in the past -- how much of a food spike there is after he eats, when the insulin first starts working and how low it goes, when in the cycle is the lowest BG reading, when does the insulin effect appear to wear off ...

since you don't have a spreadsheet that we can look at, only you would know the answers here -- unfortunately there's no manual to go by, and if I know cats, if there WERE a manual, they wouldn't follow it anyway

what they generally tell us, as newbies, is -- don't shoot if the test is under 200 -- that gives a generous cushion to keep the cat out of a danger zone, when we're first gathering the information about how the cat responds -- yeah ECID -- you get to know YOUR cat really well

 

Oh novolin stickie says 250 so i’ll stick to that for now i assume

 

glad you saw that -- we started out on Vetsulin which reacts much like Novolin, but there ARE differences and I just found out from you, about one

 

Like CandyH and CatCat, I offer poached chicken breast or thigh meat, but Idjit gets breakfast, lunch, dinner and a bedtime snack. Just a routine we got into at dx and eliminating grazing on dry food at will. I feed Idj three meals of 2 ounces of raw meat with supplement, then the bedtime snack is a couple of TBLS of Friskies. I want him to remember that canned food is still ok, just in case for some reason he is only provided with canned food. He's much bigger/heavier than AJ, though and won't need nearly as much food.

Idjit is a creature of habit and insists on a midmorning snack and gets some chopped up chicken, or a raw chicken wing piece to help keep his teeth clean. He also goes in the kitchen between 9 and 9:30 PM and just sits there waiting for his bedtime snack. He does go outside and gets exercise so I don't worry so much about a few extra calories.

You are going to be working to get the dry food out of his diet..gradually, so maybe offer some canned food or chicken bits instead of one dry food snack. Then in a few days, replace another dry snack with wet food. Then, less dry in one meal and more wet, until he is on all wet food. If you want you can feed him 3-4 times a day, and if you are gone during the day, use a timed feeder or freeze canned food in an ice cube tray, put the frozen meatsicles in a freezer bag.. and leave a cube or two (if small) out to thaw for him. Testing is going to show you any lowering of BG and I bet you will see some gradual differences with the change in diet.

Is AJ eating well today?

Urine testing for Ketones:
Here are some tips on how to do urine ketone testing (VERY important if BG is high and kitty isn't eating well!):
put the end of the test strip right in his urine stream as he's peeing
slip a shallow, long handled spoon under his backside to catch a little pee - you don't need much (or a shallow lid)
put a double layer of plastic wrap over his favorite part of the litter box and poke some depressions in it too catch pee.
Most test strips have to be dipped and allowed to develop for 15 seconds before viewing the color change in very good light.

 

I will get different food to start to transition him off the dry tomorrow, thank you for the tips he is eating perfectly today even running around, it’s amazing. Did the ketone test and it came back negative so all good on that!

 

https://www.amazon.com/Kaneso-Tokuyou-Hanakatsuo-Bonito-Flakes/dp/B0052BGLMS

These are the same bonito flakes I got at the Asian market and roughly the same price! These are all protein and have small amount of sodium. They are shaved, thin and pretty fishy so I only give a tiny amount as a treat post shot.

 

Having some trouble with the relion meter~ this morning’s test went super smooth but i went to test again to check where he was at and it read 50 glucose and i was shocked because he has tons of energy and is eating and read 291 this morning. So i tested it on myself and it read 20 for me so something is definitely up but I don’t understand what it could be. Anyone have any advice or ran into this problem before?

 

The battery says it is at half life and i just bought it this morning.

 

Tagging @Bobbie And Bubba and @Jerry dutchboy they both use the relion prime. And @Bella's Mom

 

Thanks so much!

 

Hmmm, I think I would get a new battery for it. It’s a bummer that it was sold with a weak battery , but that it what it appears to be. It shouldn’t be much more than 6 bucks and I think I would take it back to Walmart and see if they would pay for the new battery or replace the meter.

 

Oh i see darn. What battery would i need for the meter?

 

Do you have the insert from the meter ? My booklet says
Battery CR2032. Any pharmacy like CVS should carry it.

 

My town only has walmart. Would they carry that battery?

 

I don’t see your SS attached to your signature so I don’t what his dose has been so i can’t comment on dosing. Could you link your SS to your signature and start a new thread tomorrow with his name , AMBG = xxx. We start a new one each day otherwise it gets too long. I’m sorry, I have to take care of my 92 year old mom and I can’t go through all the post on this thread.

 

Yes, I’m sure since it’s a Walmart meter.

 

Sorry someone is working on getting the SS set up for me still. I will start a new one tomorrow. I understand.

 

Oh good! Glad someone is assisting you. I needed help too.

Since I can’t see you me SS and you are concerned about the dose since the meter is doing wacky things, I would err on the side of being conservative with the dose.

Could you add the diagnosis date for your baby and his name?


I look forward to seeing more post from you.

Keep asking questions as that’s how we all learn.

 

Okay i’ll do that then thank you for the help! I have his name: AJ and diagnosis date: 8/5/19 in the signature unless you mean add it to title of my next forum?

 

Ok, signature updated..good! Who is helping you with the spreadsheet? Marje or Chris? I ask because Marje said she might not have time today or tomorrow, and Chris said she would be happy to help out.

 

I contacted chris and they said they would if i gave them my email but haven’t updated me on it as of yet

 

I see it now, I totally missed it You’re good, I’m blind! LOL.

I’m sure Chris will get your SS up and going ASAP.

 

Ok, that's good. She will do it as soon as she can, I'm sure. Until you have that set up and data entered, you should state BG readings in your message so we know what's going on.
AMPS is morning preshot
then use +1, +2 etc to indicate how many hours from the shot
PMPS is evening preshot
and so on.

So, today : AMPS 291
Were you able to get any other tests during the day today? Will your BF be there and can get replacement meter or batteries so you can keep testing?

 

Do you have an opinion on what i should do about the dosing? He was at 291 blood glucose at 10am this morning after giving him the 1 unit dose last night at 10pm. My boyfriend is going to grab a battery for our meter on his way home from work since the meter isn’t working now but won’t be able to test until he is home at 1030-11pm. Should i wait to give insulin until i can test him even if waiting until 11pm? Or give him 1 unit at his regular 10pm time and test him after to make sure he is okay? I’m thinking i should maybe just wait until 11pm when we can test him and give the shot late. But wanted to ask anyway to be sure.

 

I tried to test him again around 530pm but the meter wasn’t working anymore unfortunately so just the one test today

 

Hi! So glad you found us.
I'd suggest you wait for the battery and test AJ before giving insulin tonight. I'll watch for your post with the pre-shot reading

 

@Bobbie And Bubba in a nutshell, AJ dx in July, BG 480 started Novolin at 2 U, vet has increased up to 7 U 2X day as of yesterday. BG tested at vet every 3 days, 380, then 420, then 630 she reports. She posted yesterday and we told her to take it down to 1 U 2X a day and start testing.

 

Thank you Linda, I was going to advise that too. Better safe than sorry?

 

Okay! I’ll wait to get the reading then give shot if its over 250 then~ thank you!

 

I agree to wait in the battery and get an accurate number.

 

you mentioned you were going to get some different food..like what? The Fancy Feast classics are fine, but more expensive than the Friskies pates (not Indoor variety though). You mentioned some financial issues, is why I ask. You can get regular chicken thighs, legs or breast on the bone, less expensive than boneless/skinless and cook in the crock pot or in water on the stove like for chicken soup, but not as much water. Lift meat out, pull off skin and toss that, pull meat off the bone and use that for testing treats and/or snacks. Freeze up small portions in freezer bags. Let the broth cool if cooking on the stove, put in fridge then skim off the layer of fat, toss that. The broth can be frozen in ice cube trays and you can let some thaw and mix a bit in his food. Extra moisture is good for him, and that broth is very tasty. I thaw a cube or 2 in a small dish in the microwave and give it to Idjit when he's begging for food and it's not a meal time, or if it's very hot out and I want him to have more water.

 

Oh not for me, i’ll be sticking with the fancy feast. i made that post for my sister and her bigger cats because they are from same litter as AJ and she wants them to lose weight and prevent them from getting health problems in the future like AJ has~ one cat is 13lbs but very long and big boned and other is 11lbs but normal proportion. Wanted to know if there were cheaper healthy options for her for prevention because she is in college with limited budget and with her big cats they’d eat through $200 in fancy feast per month

 

How much chicken would they need to eat per day to lose weight? And do you think her buying the chicken thighs and boiling would be cheaper than the fancy feast? Or is fancy feast/friskys cheapest option after all? Just trying to help her out because i know she wouldn’t be able to care for her cats if they did become diabetic sadly
Edit just heard chicken is not a viable option other than for treats darn
Edit again she’ll do the 13oz cans of friskies since that’ll be a lot cheaper than the small cans, problem solved sorry for the confusion

 

2032 batteries are really common, glucometers are not the only products that use that model -- -- just check to see if your meter needs 1 or 2 of them, some meters do need 2 -- but most any pharmacy or big box store will have them, even Dollar Tree does ... check in the watch department if the battery isn't on the display with the AA, AAA, C, D, and 9volt ones

 

will do! Thank you!

 

Correct about the plain chicken, I mentioned the Friskies pates, they are low carb too. Bigger cans, less per ounce cost. Lots of flavor varieties. That's what Idjit gets for his bedtime snack.

I know it's hard to see things on the cell phone small screen, but we have access to a food chart with lots of canned food brands and flavors with % of protein, fat, phosphorus, carbs and calories-per-can. For diabetic cats you want carbs below 10%, less is better.
https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf
The Friskies is available in grocery stores and Walmart, so we recommend that and FF at first because it's so readily available. There are many other brands that are good, but are available at pet stores and online.
Tell sister to visit www.catinfo.org. It's a feline nutrition site and that vet did the food chart too. She can transition them from dry to wet like you are going to do, and then just bit by bit, reduce the amount of food to help them lose weight if they need to.

 

I will make sure to check it out and send it to her as well! Thanks again

 

If you have Amazon Prime, you can get cheap 2032 batteries there. Take the battery out and rotate it. It might not be making good contact. The battery in my meter was about 50% as well. I was surprised because with such a popular, inexpensive meter I would have thought they would not have been on the shelf for a long time.