AMPS skip shot PMPS 170 dose advice please!

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Mayka Otto, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
  2. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    I am not a Prozinc user and there is not anyone around at the moment that I know of who can help you.
    However, looking at the SS I see you have missed two shots of insulin.
    Have you skipped this pm cycle? I would skip this pm dose.

    When the BG is high enough to shoot, I would reduce the dose down to 0.25 units, to see if you can shoot both am and pm shots. Do not give insulin if the BG is under 200.

    Does Otto have a history of ketones or DKA?
    If you are having to skip many shots I would like you to test for ketones in the urine.
    You can buy a bottle of Ketostix at a pharmacy and then collect a urine sample form Otto and dip the test strip into the urine and chalk it against the colours on the side of the bottle. Anything above a trace needs vet attention.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  3. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    Thanks for the reply. In the end I have measured again and from 172 to 10PM to down to 151 12PM. I have skipped injection. What is the reason for skipping injection if it is less than 200? And negative ketones, I control them with the strips from the beginning diagnosis. What makes you think you have ketones?
     
  4. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    When your cat is new to insulin, it is recommended that you don't give any insulin if the BG is under 200 for safety. I see you have given the insulin when the BG was 190 and 195 so for now don't give the insulin if the BG is under 190.

    That is good you are monitoring for ketones.
    I don't thing he has ketones......but when you skip doses of insulin, there is a possibility that ketones can form if the cat has a history of ketones. That is why it is good to test for them.

    Is Otto eating well?
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  5. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    [QUOTE = "Bron and Sheba (GA), post: 2515150, miembro: 12152"] Cuando su gato es nuevo en la insulina, se recomienda que no le dé insulina si la glucemia es menor de 200 por seguridad. Veo que te has dado la insulina cuando la glucemia era 190 y 195, así que por ahora no te la des insulina si la glucemia es inferior a 190.

    Es bueno que esté monitoreando las cetonas.
    No creo que tenga cetonas ... pero cuando omite las dosis de insulina, existe la posibilidad de que se formen cetonas si el gato tiene antecedentes de cetonas. Por eso es bueno probarlos.

    ¿Otto está comiendo bien? [/ CITA]

    Le di insulina cuando vio que el día anterior al 175 subió mucho más tarde. Ok, no administro por debajo de 190. ¿Puede decirme la dosis con la que debo continuar si es mayor de 200? Y Otto nunca parecía tener diabetes, me alegro de beber mucha agua y siempre tener hambre. Ahora, desde que fui a la comida húmeda, la sed es normal, que tiene mucha hambre. Es muy activo y juguetón
    I gave him insulin when he saw that the day before 175 he went up much later. Ok I do not administer below 190. Can you tell me the dose with which I should continue if it is greater than 200? And Otto never seemed to have diabetes, I'm glad to drink a lot of water and always be hungry. Now since I went to wet food thirst is normal, which is very hungry. He is very active and playful
     
  6. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    I would reduce the dose of insulin to 0.25 units and hopefully you will be able to give the insulin each time it is due.
    Because you have given Otto insulin when the BG was 190, I think you can give him a dose if he is 190 or above from now on.
    I am happy he is a hungry boy. That is good.
    Give him lots of food, especially in the first half of the cycles ( in the 6 hours after the insulin doses)
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  7. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2019
    Bron and Sheba is giving you great advice. I agree about skipping dose if his blood sugar is under 190. If his blood sugar isn't high enough at dose time, a dose could send his blood sugar too low, which is dangerous. Better have a day of higher blood sugar levels than risk a dangerous low blood sugar.

    Bron and Sheba's dosing advice is is exactly what an experienced ProZinc user told me when I was in the same situation with Billy. If you are skipping doses, it's better to reduce the dose to .25 (the next time his blood sugar level is high enough to get an injection.) Then wait three 12-hour cycles and see if that .25 dose is going well. Cats do better if they can get a dose twice a day, but you are right to skip if his blood sugar is too low. After you switch to .25, if you are still skipping doses, reduce to .1 for the same reason. It's too soon to tell for sure, but it looks to me like Otto may go into remission, which would be awesome.

    It's good that you are doing some blood sugar tests in the middle of the cycle, especially with the changing doses. You are doing great!

    Bron y Sheba te están dando buenos consejos. Estoy de acuerdo en omitir la dosis si su azúcar en la sangre es inferior a 190. Si su azúcar en la sangre no es lo suficientemente alta en el momento de la dosis, una dosis podría enviar su azúcar en la sangre demasiado bajo, lo cual es peligroso. Es mejor tener un día de niveles de azúcar en la sangre más altos que el riesgo de un nivel bajo de azúcar en la sangre peligroso.

    El consejo de dosificación de Bron y Sheba es exactamente lo que me dijo un usuario experimentado de ProZinc cuando estaba en la misma situación con Billy. Si está omitiendo dosis, es mejor reducir la dosis a .25 (la próxima vez que su nivel de azúcar en la sangre sea lo suficientemente alto como para recibir una inyección). Luego espere tres ciclos de 12 horas y vea si esa dosis de .25 va bien . A los gatos les va mejor si pueden recibir una dosis dos veces al día, pero tiene derecho a saltarse si su nivel de azúcar en la sangre es demasiado bajo. Después de cambiar a .25, si aún se saltea las dosis, reduzca a .1 por la misma razón. Es demasiado pronto para decirlo con certeza, pero me parece que Otto puede entrar en remisión, lo que sería increíble.

    Es bueno que esté haciendo algunas pruebas de azúcar en la sangre en la mitad del ciclo, especialmente con las dosis cambiantes. ¡Lo estás haciendo genial!
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  8. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    Hi. Yes, thank you very much I understood perfectly it is wonderful that Otto is going into remission. And if tonight I do not inject, I have skipped the dose for 2 days and we are like this, still the same? I will open a new post !!!




    Abrir en el Traductor de Google

    Enviar comentarios
    Resultados web
    translate.google.es ›...

    traductor de Google

    El servicio gratuito de Google traduce instantáneamente palabras, frases y páginas web del español a más de 100 idiomas y viceversa.
    Ha visitado esta página muchas veces. Fecha de la última visita: 05/11/18

    dictionary.cambridge.org ›traducir
     
  9. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    No, please keep posting in this same thread for help. The one labeled
    AMPS skip shot PMPS 170 dose advice please!

    That way, the people that are helping you can look back at the replies and what has been said before. It keeps all the history together and makes it easier for us to understand and help you better.

    No, sigue publicando en este mismo hilo para obtener ayuda. El etiquetado
    Omitir AMPS tiro PMPS 170 dosis consejos por favor!

    De esa manera, las personas que lo ayudan pueden mirar hacia atrás las respuestas y lo que se ha dicho antes. Mantiene toda la historia unida y nos facilita comprenderlo y ayudarlo mejor.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  10. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    What time is it in Spain right now? Spain has 2 time zones.
    Or you could tell me what city or town you leave in.
    How long until Otto needs to be tested?

    ¿Qué hora es en España ahora? España tiene 2 zonas horarias.
    O podrías decirme en qué ciudad o pueblo te vas.
    ¿Cuánto tiempo hasta que Otto necesita ser probado?
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  11. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    @Veronica & Babu-chiri told me you live in Barcelona. That is GMT +1. Would you update your signature in your user profile to include that information. Right now your signature says

    Hello, rating Otto table? How to continue with measurements, doses and quantities of food? Thank you

    The signature should have your first name, your cats name, cat age, cat sex, date of diabetes diagnosis, Insulin used (Prozinc), meter used for blood glucose testing. Saying it's a human or pet specific glucometer is enough.

    So we are looking for the signature to have something like this for Otto.
    Mayka, Otto 10 years old, Male, DX: 29/11/2019, Prozinc, human meter, GMT +1, Otto's SS link.

    Be sure to keep the SS (spreadsheet) link as part of your signature.

    @Veronica & Babu-chiri me dijeron que vives en Barcelona. Eso es GMT +1. ¿Actualizaría su firma en su perfil de usuario para incluir esa información? En este momento tu firma dice

    Hola, ¿clasificando la mesa Otto? ¿Cómo continuar con mediciones, dosis y cantidades de alimentos? Gracias

    La firma debe tener su nombre, el nombre de su gato, la edad del gato, el sexo del gato, la fecha del diagnóstico de diabetes, la insulina utilizada (Prozinc), el medidor utilizado para las pruebas de glucosa en sangre. Decir que es un glucómetro específico para humanos o mascotas es suficiente.

    Así que estamos buscando la firma para tener algo como esto para Otto.
    Mayka, Otto 10 años, hombre, DX: 29/11/2019, Prozinc, medidor humano, GMT +1, enlace SS de Otto.

    Asegúrese de mantener el enlace SS (hoja de cálculo) como parte de su firma.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  12. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    She has seen your answer and is trying to change her signature, just one coment Otto is 8 months old not 10 years

    We do not know if he had medications or something prior because he was found abandoned with his brother in the street, his brother also had diabetes but appears to be on remission now
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  13. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    [QUOTE = "Deb & Wink, post: 2515509, miembro: 7964"] [USER = 15796] @Veronica & Babu-chiri [/ USER] me dijo que vivías en Barcelona. Eso es GMT +1. ¿Actualizaría su firma en su perfil de usuario para incluir esa información? En este momento tu firma dice

    Hola, ¿clasificando la mesa Otto? ¿Cómo continuar con mediciones, dosis y cantidades de alimentos? Gracias

    La firma debe tener su nombre, el nombre de su gato, la edad del gato, el sexo del gato, la fecha del diagnóstico de diabetes, la insulina utilizada (Prozinc), el medidor utilizado para las pruebas de glucosa en sangre. Decir que es un glucómetro específico para humanos o mascotas es suficiente.

    Así que estamos buscando la firma para tener algo como esto para Otto.
    Mayka, Otto 10 años, hombre, DX: 29/11/2019, Prozinc, medidor humano, GMT +1, enlace SS de Otto.

    Asegúrese de mantener el enlace SS (hoja de cálculo) como parte de su firma.

    [USER = 15796] @Veronica & Babu-chiri [/ USER] me dijeron que vives en Barcelona. Eso es GMT +1. ¿Actualizar su firma en su perfil de usuario para incluir esa información? En este momento tu firma dice

    Hola, ¿clasificando la mesa Otto? ¿Cómo continuar con las medidas, dosis y cantidades de alimentos? Gracias

    La firma debe tener su nombre, el nombre de su gato, la edad del gato, el sexo del gato, la fecha del diagnóstico de diabetes, la insulina detectada (Prozinc), el medidor utilizado para las pruebas de glucosa en sangre. Decir que es un glucómetro específico para humanos o mascotas es suficiente.

    Así que estamos buscando la firma para tener algo como esto para Otto.
    Mayka, Otto 10 años, hombre, DX: 29/11/2019, Prozinc, medidor humano, GMT +1, enlace SS de Otto.

    Asegúrese de mantener el enlace SS (hoja de cálculo) como parte de su firma. [/ QUOTE]

    Signature changed, I'm sorry I didn't do it right
     
    Deb & Wink likes this.
  14. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Thank you Mayka.

    Did you read through my other replies to you? One way to tell us you have done that is to click on the "Like" in the lower right hand corner of a reply when you have read it. Would you please take a few minutes and do that now? Please read through the replies and see if you have any questions. Please don't only click on the Like button, but read through the reply first.

    No apologies needed. Don't worry about what the signature said before. I see the helpful information in your signature now. Thank you for doing that change.

    Gracias Mayka

    ¿Leíste mis otras respuestas? Una forma de decirnos que lo ha hecho es hacer clic en "Me gusta" en la esquina inferior derecha de una respuesta cuando la haya leído. ¿Podrías tomarte unos minutos y hacerlo ahora? Lea las respuestas y vea si tiene alguna pregunta. No solo haga clic en el botón Me gusta, sino que lea primero la respuesta.

    No se necesitan disculpas. No te preocupes por lo que decía la firma antes. Veo la información útil en su firma ahora. Gracias por hacer ese cambio.


    :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  15. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Los detalles en su ferma se ven bien ahora. Ocho meses es muy joven, lo siento. Espero con la ayuda aquí Otto hará bien. Buena suerte. :)

    English: the details in your signature are fine now. Eight months is very young, I'm sorry, I hope with the help here Otto will do well. Good luck.
     
  16. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hi thanks everyone, I've asked Makyo to do a test about an hour before her shooting time (that would be in about 1 hour from now) and let us know her result so that some of you here have time to check it out and help us on what to do for the next shoot do you think that's a good idea?
     
  17. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    I think getting +11 is a good idea. It will help people to see if her preshot number is going up.
     
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  18. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Yes, Veronica that would be very good. If there is a way to know her regular pre-shot test times for the AMPS and PMPS testing times that would be helpful also. Whatever the times are where she lives in Spain is what I'm looking for.

    I think from what you said that her normal test times would be 11 AM and 11 PM her time there in Spain?
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  19. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Yes for now she's using that schedule
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  20. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hi everyone, @Mayka Otto has just tested and the result she got is 177 which is practically the same he was this morning, Otto had his last meal about 3 hours ago, what do you recomend she does skipp the shot or give 0.25 or maybe even less? Not shure how would you measure less with Prozinc
     
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  21. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    That was the +11 test. Have her do one more test at the regular Pre-shot PMPS test time. 11 PM her time.

    If the PMPS (evening pre-shot) is not above 190, skip the shot.
    She has given insulin before at that "shoot/no-shoot" limit.
    If the PMPS is >190 then give a very tiny dose. A drop or maybe 0.1U if she thinks she can measure that small amount with the U40 syringes.

    We need to teach Mayka how to stall without feeding at the PS (pre-shot) test times if the BG reading is below the "Shoot/no-shoot" limit. Currently that is 190.
    Stalling is waiting 20 minutes to see if the BG (blood glucose) numbers are rising. Without feeding.
    If the BG's are rising, then go ahead and give the insulin.
    If the BG's are falling or about the same, stall for another 20 minutes and retest.
    It's possible to stall up to 1 hour with Prozinc and still stay on schedule for the next 12 hour dosing cycle.
    The flexibility with Prozinc on adjusting dose times is one nice feature of that insulin type.
    IF the caregiver's schedule allows for that stalling/skipping.
    Shot the next day could be given at the regular time.

    Mayka also purchased a new meter. Saw that on her spreadsheet in the Remarks column.
    Does she have plenty of test strips?

    What is her work schedule like? Other life responsibilities?

    We need to teach Mayka drop dosing. Have her keep a used syringe and we can teach her how to do that.
    What is her day like tomorrow?

    I hate to ask so much from someone that is already under a lot of stress and pressure and has their own health issues. But I don't know any other way to keep Otto safe. Safety is very important to us.

    There is a way to use U100 syringes with a U40 insulin but it gets complicated and can lead to confusion and overdosing and hypoglycemia for Otto. I think it's too soon to try that.

    Does she have a "Hypo Kit" ready in case Otto drops into low numbers? If not, skip the shot for tonight. Anything under 90 for now may need some intervention with food.

    I've been reading through some of the old threads that were posted. Trying to catch myself up on what Mayka was told before.
     
  22. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    These pictures show U100 syringes, but the concept of measuring U40 insulin in tiny doses is the same. It's the positioning of the end of the plunger that is the key factor to focus on when measuring tiny doses. The U40 syringes she should be using have a red cap.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Contingency planning. If this than do this. If this than do this instead.

    Kind of like what I did for Teo before he went on vacation and left his cat with a cat sitter.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  23. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    I´ll try and answer the questions first

    Yes she got a ton of strips

    She's retired so she has tomorrow free (and most of the time she can adapt her schedule for her other responsibilities mostly helping her mother to Otto's needs) and she can monitor tonight if necessary

    Yes she has a hypo kit with high carb food and honey at hand

    She has been practicing a bit about that and I'm not sure about measuring very precise doses but at least the 0.1 that would be just above the 0 line she mentions she is confident she can measure them


    I agree that would have to wait
     
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  24. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Ok. Waiting for next BG test at the PMPS testing time. Expecting that any time now.

    Please have Mayka keep the SS (spreadsheet) as updated as possible.

    I don't see the +11 on the SS yet.

    Good to know the answers to those questions.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  25. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    She has just got the result and is 163 :nailbiting:

    She's reading all your answers but is having some internet problems so she hasn't been able to update de SS
     
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  26. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    No worries on not being able to update the SS.

    Is she willing to try the stalling technique?

    If she is having internet problems, then if she can't respond to us and can't read what we are telling her, it's better to skip the shot tonight.

    My gut is saying to skip the shot for tonight.

    She could still practice the stalling technique. NO insulin, NO food, but test again in 20 minutes from the last test to see if BG's are rising.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  27. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Because Otto has not had any insulin for a couple of days and there is NO insulin "depot" affect with Prozinc the blood glucose readings of 177 and 163 are not that worrisome.

    Another nice feature of the in-and-out insulins. No "depot" or storage area.

    Not such a nail biter as when a cat is still getting Lantus or Levimir insulin and there is that "depot" storage area to take into consideration.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  28. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    She's reading and following all your answers and able to use the forum in her cell is just the SS she can't update because she hasn't configured it yet

    And she's stalling right now and just tested again she got 150:facepalm:
     
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  29. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Still not high enough to give the Prozinc insulin.

    She could try stalling one more time, but those BG readings are going down, down, down. And her kitten Otto is probably getting very hungry.

    Not hopeful that the numbers will get high enough to give any insulin tonight.

    If she is able to get a BG test before she goes to bed, that could be helpful.

    I'll try to be up early on Monday to help her again. I'm an insomniac so often can not sleep late in the morning anyways. 11 am her time is 5 am my time. I'll try very, very hard to be here for Mayka.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  30. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2019
    Question for you @Deb & Wink, If Otto's blood sugar gets high enough to shoot, even if it's a little higher, say in the low 200s, do you think it's time to try a drop dose, full stop? I suggested cutting to .25 higher up in the thread, but I suspect that would be too high at this point. (I was only restating good advice from more experienced members at the time, but Otto has had to skip more doses since then.) But I don't really have the experience to advise about dose, I'm still learning.
     
  31. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    You are doing very well Mayka. It's very hard to learn how to help a diabetic cat. It's even harder when the people helping you don't even speak or write the same language you do. Google translate helps, but there can be things we say that don't get translated as well as we would like.

    You must love your kitten Otto very much and are trying to help him the very best you know how. I have a very big smile on my face right now thinking about all the good things you are doing for Otto.

    If you have Google sheets and Google drive on your Iphone you can use that to update your SS (spreadsheet). Learned that recently from member Jennifer R. I don't use a smartphone myself.

    p.s. Thanks Veronica for all the PM's you must have been doing to help out Mayka, translating in Spanish back and forth between the 2 of you.

    Lo estás haciendo muy bien Mayka. Es muy difícil aprender a ayudar a un gato diabético. Es aún más difícil cuando las personas que lo ayudan ni siquiera hablan o escriben el mismo idioma que usted. El traductor de Google ayuda, pero puede haber cosas que decimos que no se traducen tan bien como nos gustaría.

    Debes amar mucho a tu gatito Otto y estás tratando de ayudarlo lo mejor que puedas. Tengo una gran sonrisa en mi cara ahora mismo pensando en todas las cosas buenas que estás haciendo por Otto.

    Si tiene hojas de Google y Google Drive en su iPhone, puede usarlo para actualizar su SS (hoja de cálculo). Me enteré recientemente de que la miembro Jennifer R. no uso un teléfono inteligente.

    PD. Gracias Veronica por todos los PM que debes haber estado haciendo para ayudar a Mayka, traduciendo en español de ida y vuelta entre ustedes dos.
     
  32. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Did you skip the insulin dose and feed Otto for tonight?

    ¿Se saltó la dosis de insulina y alimentó a Otto esta noche?
     
  33. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    @Veronica & Babu-chiri
    Do you know what the carb content is of the food Otto is getting?
    One way to maybe get some more insulin in, is to raise the carb content of the food to say 10% and see if that helps get a shootable Preshot
     
  34. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    She skipped the insulin and is feeding him right now she's going to test him at +1 and at +2 to try and see how his body is reacting to the food
     
    Juls and Billy likes this.
  35. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Sounds like a good plan to me.
     
  36. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    @Juls and Billy

    Only a quick answer for now. Look back in this thread for posts #21 and #22.

    More info later.
     
    Juls and Billy likes this.
  37. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Makya tells me 1.8%
     
  38. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    If she can get some higher carb canned food around 8% to 10% and feeds that instead of the 1.8% carbs, that may be enough for the BG to rise high enough to give some insulin, because at the moment, he really still needs some insulin. She would need to just feed the 8% to 10% only during the cycles and not the 1.8% if she tried that to see if it helps.
     
  39. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    No idea what foods are available in Spain at 1 am in the morning.
     
  40. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    @Gill & George may be able to help with foods available in Spain but not sure she is around much at the moment.
     
  41. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Thanks Bron! lista comidas en Europa

    Granatapet Veal and Poultry is 7.2% carbs. Don't know the texture type.
    Animonda Carny Adult beef is 7.8% carbs.

    Mayka was feeding some of the Granatapet and Animonda foods before. I'm not sure which ones.

    Gill & George did help in the beginning. That is how Mayka knew to try the Feringa food she is feeding Otto now. But maybe she has some suggestions for a higher carb food, closer to the 10% carbs than the 2 I found looking quickly at the Europe food chart.

    Link back to that thread, for reference 01/10/20 Otto age 8 months diabetes. New with enough doubts ...

    "It takes a community to help diabetic cats."
     
  42. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    @Veronica & Babu-chiri, if Mayka has some of the 7.2% and 7.8% carb food that Deb mentions above, that might be worth trying while she is waiting to find some food which is a bit higher carb. It may raise the BG up enought to shoot.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  43. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    No she doesn't but will look into them tomorrow morning so maybe she can start feeding them tomorrow afternoon, for the moment the test results after feeding ( no insulin) are +1 140, +2 145

    I don't think he will go much higher with the food his getting so I'm expecting him to be pretty much the same tomorrow morning, which probably will mean Mayka won't be able to shoot in the morning either, still she will test AMPS and let us know so the plan is if he's still too low to shoot monitor him after eating like today and if by any chance he's high enough then maybe just give 0.1 (quite unlikely this will happen with out diet change) what do think about this plan?

    Deb I'll be up very early tomorrow morning and check up on her so don't worry too much if you can't be up very early ( my usual waking hour is 5:30 to prep for work anyway)
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  44. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Good plan. Let's go with it.

    Hey, I'm retired. Turned from a night owl staying up late to a morning person several years ago.

    If Mayka will be going out shopping to find different cat foods tomorrow, she should pick up some ketone test strips at the pharmacy/drugstore/chemist. Without insulin, there is always that chance of ketones forming.

    See you in the morning. Thanks for all your help today Veronica and Bron and Juls and Christie.
     
  45. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Yes that sounds like a good plan Veronica.
     
  46. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    @Veronica & Babu-chiri how many hours til AMPS? I am inAustralia and it’s only 2 pm here Monday so I’ll be awake for 8 or 9 hours yet.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  47. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Hi Bron. Mayka lives in Barcelona. She is currently doing the pre-shot AMPS test at 11 AM her time. She does the pre-shot PMPS test at 11 PM her time.

    I'm awake here in Boston and it's 5 AM Monday for me. Catching up on what happened overnight. Expect to see Mayka posting soon.

    Hola bron Mayka vive en Barcelona. Actualmente está haciendo la prueba AMPS previa a la inyección a las 11 a.m., su tiempo. Ella hace la prueba de PMPS pre-tiro a las 11 PM su tiempo.

    Estoy despierto aquí en Boston y son las 5 AM del lunes para mí. Ponerme al día con lo que sucedió de la noche a la mañana. Espere ver a Mayka publicando pronto.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    Reason for edit: added spanish translation for Mayka to understand
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  48. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Good Morning Mayka. I hope you got some restful sleep last night.
    I saw that you were signed on for a short time this morning, but it looks like you are logged off right now.

    Buenos dias Mayka. Espero que hayas dormido bien anoche.
    Vi que ha iniciado sesión por un corto tiempo esta mañana, pero parece que ahora está desconectado.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  49. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    Good morning Deb, well I've slept little but used already, it's many days watching Otto. I have problems with the internet, now I am connected again. Thank you very much for the help, without you Otto would not be so good. I have put in measurement table today 11AM 125mg / ml, I continue measuring at +1, +2 and +3.
    I hope translator is well understood ...
    Thank you
     
    Deb & Wink likes this.
  50. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    I understand what you are saying. Yes, getting those +1, +2 and +3 tests will be good. I'd like to see a blood glucose test closer to the middle of the 12 hour cycle. Sometime in the +5 to +7 hour range. One test during that time. Your choice of what time to test. If you are at home to do that.

    Otto's blood glucose numbers are still coming down. They are too low to give him even 0.1U of insulin. His blood glucose readings are almost back to normal range, 40-100 mg/dl. We'd like to see them in the green range on the spreadsheet (SS). That would tell us if his pancreas is producing insulin on it's own.

    Did you feed Otto the Feringa food this morning? At what time? Same time as the 11 AM (AMPS ) test time?

    Entiendo lo que dices. Sí, obtener esas pruebas +1, +2 y +3 será bueno. Me gustaría ver una prueba de glucosa en sangre más cerca de la mitad del ciclo de 12 horas. En algún momento en el rango de +5 a +7 horas. Una prueba durante ese tiempo. Tu elección de a qué hora hacer la prueba. Si estás en casa para hacer eso.

    Los niveles de glucosa en la sangre de Otto todavía están bajando. Son demasiado bajos para darle incluso 0.1U de insulina. Sus lecturas de glucosa en sangre están casi de vuelta al rango normal, 40-100 mg / dl. Nos gustaría verlos en el rango verde en la hoja de cálculo (SS). Eso nos diría si su páncreas está produciendo insulina por sí mismo.

    ¿Alimentaste a Otto the Feringa esta mañana? ¿A qué hora? ¿La misma hora que la hora de prueba de las 11 AM (AMPS)?
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  51. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    I have ketone strips and have been doing control since diagnosis, being negative
     
    Deb & Wink likes this.
  52. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    I will be home all day, and tell me exactly what time you want me to measure + 5 + 6 or +7?
    Yes I fed at 11PM with a syringe. Hopefully keep going down ...
     
    Deb & Wink likes this.
  53. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Does Otto not want to eat on his own? Are you 'assist feeding' him using a feeding syringe, like people sometimes do with an infant?

    Test at +6 please.

    ¿Otto no quiere comer solo? ¿Está 'ayudando a alimentarlo' usando una jeringa de alimentación, como las personas a veces hacen con un bebé?


    Prueba a +6 por favor.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  54. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    [QUOTE = "Deb & Wink, post: 2515856, member: 7964"] ¿Otto no quiere comer solo? ¿Está 'ayudando a alimentarlo' usando una jeringa de alimentación, como las personas a veces hacen con un bebé?

    Prueba a +6 por favor.

    ¿Otto no quiere comer solo? ¿Está 'ayudando a alimentarlo' usando una jeringa de alimentación, como las personas a veces hacen con un bebé?
    [MEDIA = youtube] U6o17wH6ujk [/ MEDIA]

    Prueba a +6 por favor. [/ QUOTE]

    Ok mido +6.
    Siempre ha tenido mucho apetito y ha comido solo.
    Ok I measure +6.
    He has always been very hungry and eaten by himself
     
    Deb & Wink likes this.
  55. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    To recap what you will be doing this morning. Clarifying what has already happened and what will be done this morning.

    • Otto ate already this morning
    • Test at +1, +2, +3
    • Test in the middle of the cycle at +6
    • Otto is eating on his own. He is very hungry. He does not need to be hand fed or assist fed with a feeding syringe.
    Para recapitular lo que harás esta mañana. Aclarando lo que ya sucedió y lo que se hará esta mañana.
    • Otto ya comió esta mañana
    • Prueba a +1, +2, +3
    • Prueba en la mitad del ciclo a +6
    • Otto está comiendo solo. El tiene mucha hambre. No necesita ser alimentado a mano o ayudado con una jeringa de alimentación.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  56. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    Agree understood. As I have values I will update table
     
    Deb & Wink likes this.
  57. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hi everyone as you have seen Otto was very low to even consider the 0.1 I just wanted to clarify that Otto is eating on his own with very good appetite not needing any assistance

    it appears the Google translator misunderstood what Mayka put and somewhat came out with syringe

    Otto had Feringa the 1.8% carb food
     
    Deb & Wink and Mayka Otto like this.
  58. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Thanks Veronica. Wanted to make sure Otto was eating on his own, so that is why I asked a few questions. Mayka did reply back that Otto eats on his own and is a very hungry boy kitten.

    Otto may need to eat more than the 220 to 240 grams (7.75 to 8.5 ounces) you are feeding now. He is still a growing kitten.

    Do you have a way to weigh him at home? Perhaps you have a scale that you use to weigh yourself? You could hold Otto in your arms, remember the weight shown, let him down from your arms, remember the new weight, subtract your weight alone from your weight plus Otto's weight. That would tell us roughly how much he weighs.

    How much does he weigh? Record that weight on the SS (spreadsheet) in the Remarks column please.

    Is Otto a very small kitten? Do you think he still has some growing to do or is he almost adult size? Kittens usually take between 9 and 12 months to grow to their full adult size. He is 9 months old now. I am only looking for your opinion on his growth.

    Does he look too thin or about the right weight or is he overweight? I doubt very much
    if Otto is overweight yet. Can you see and feel his ribs along his sides? Does he have a little layer of fat along his sides or is he too skinny?

    WSAVA Body Condition Score Chart <<<< link to the left, may help you assess the body condition of Otto. When you have a chance, please look at that link and then let us know which picture looks more like Otto's body.

    Gracias Veronica. Quería asegurarme de que Otto comiera solo, por eso hice algunas preguntas. Mayka respondió que Otto come solo y es un gatito muy hambriento.

    Otto puede necesitar comer más de 220 a 240 gramos (7.75 a 8.5 onzas) que está alimentando ahora. Sigue siendo un gatito en crecimiento.

    ¿Tienes una manera de pesarlo en casa? ¿Quizás tienes una balanza que usas para pesarte? Podrías sostener a Otto en tus brazos, recordar el peso mostrado, dejarlo caer de tus brazos, recordar el nuevo peso, restar tu peso solo de tu peso más el peso de Otto. Eso nos dirá aproximadamente cuánto pesa.

    ¿Cuánto pesa? Registre ese peso en el SS (hoja de cálculo) en la columna de Comentarios por favor.

    ¿Otto es un gatito muy pequeño? ¿Crees que todavía tiene algo que hacer o es casi del tamaño de un adulto? Los gatitos suelen tardar entre 9 y 12 meses en crecer hasta su tamaño adulto completo. Él tiene 9 meses de edad ahora. Solo estoy buscando tu opinión sobre su crecimiento.

    ¿Se ve demasiado delgado o tiene el peso correcto o tiene sobrepeso? Dudo mucho si Otto tiene sobrepeso todavía. ¿Puedes ver y sentir sus costillas a los lados? ¿Tiene una pequeña capa de grasa a los lados o es demasiado delgado?

    El cuadro de puntuación de condición corporal de WSAVA WSAVA Body Condition Score Chart <<<< a la izquierda, puede ayudarlo a evaluar la condición corporal de Otto. Cuando tenga la oportunidad, mire ese enlace y luego háganos saber qué imagen se parece más al cuerpo de Otto.

    EDITED TO ADD: Click on the blue highlighted text to open that document. I just learned that google translate "loses" the link.

    Haga clic en el texto resaltado en azul para abrir ese documento. Acabo de enterarme de que el traductor de Google "pierde" el enlace.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  59. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    He's 9.4 pounds but it seems he's a bit underweight
     
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  60. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    We don't get very many kittens here with diabetes, so I don't have a good idea of how much food Otto needs. Definitely more than he is eating now though. Kind of "thinking out loud" here, doing a bit of 'brainstorming", so try to follow my thinking and reasoning. The "why" behind my answer. Skip all this and look at the bottom for a summarization if you prefer.

    Still growing. Active kitten, probably playing a lot, so burning off calories quickly. Seems underweight. Needs more food. But how much is the question? Keeping Otto healthy, helping him gain some needed weight back. Not too much food because we don't want him to become overweight. That becoming overweight is unlikely to happen in a week or even 2 or 3 weeks or a month, but is something to consider in the future. Need to keep the diabetes under control. But without enough food and insulin there are other health risks. No ketones. Daily testing for ketones if possible, to be cautious. To be safer.

    I would like to see if Otto would be better on a slightly higher carb food. Still less than 10%. More carbs than the 1.9% from the Feringa may be better for him. Help him to gain more weight. It's a balancing act, like a circus performer walking a tightrope. We just don't know for sure what would be best for Otto. We'll have to try and see what happens with a higher carb food.

    Found this information on a couple of places on the internet doing a search on how much food to feed a kitten.
    "If you’re feeding her canned food, feed her as much as she will eat up to about four months of age, divided into three or four feedings per day. Consider the activity level of your kitten, as well. From four to six months, feed her about 2/3 of a 3-oz. can per pound of body weight per day, and from six months to a year, about half a 3-oz. can per pound per day."

    Using that recommendation than at 9.4 pounds (4.25 kilos) times 1.5 ounces (42 grams) = 14 ounces (400 grams). That seems like too much though (14 ounces, almost 400 grams). I'd definitely add 2-3 ounces (56-85 grams) more to Otto's diet, preferable the higher amount. Spread out the increased 3 ounces (85 grams) of food among his current meals so that would be about 11.5 ounces of food. Then, reassess in a week with a weight and body condition score again (BCS). Not sure what size cans (or pouches) of food are being used. That amount of grams does not have to be that precise.

    More protein added to Otto's diet. Some plain cooked chicken, about 15% to 20% of his total food intake would increase his protein and help him to gain weight. Instead of adding more canned cat food to Otto's diet, I think some more protein might be better. So about 2 ounces of plain cooked meat, chicken, pork, beef. Whichever he likes. The other ounce of increased food would be 1 ounce of the canned food.

    "Per Cat Info, you can add 1 part lean protein to 5 parts canned cat food, mix well, and portion out. This boosts the protein and lowers both carbohydrate and fat" Dr. Lisa Pierson's catinfo.org website is my source for the 20% additional protein. Chicken without the skin is probably the best choice.

    More food is my final answer. We'll see how it goes.

    From Tufts Veterinary https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/01/diabetic_cat_diet/ (Tufts is an well known veterinary school where I live) article talks about what to feed a diabetic cat and mentions what to do if underweight.

    The condensed version is here.
    • Otto is underweight
    • 20% more protein to help Otto gain weight
    • 2 ounces more food, plain cooked skinless chicken to help with weight gain
    • 1 ounce more canned food to help with weight gain
    • higher carb canned food, but still <10%
    • try some of the higher carb Animoda and Granatapet from the European food list
    • UK and Europe Cat Food List
    • keep an eye on the BG levels with regular testing
    • may need a tiny bit more insulin. If we see the BG levels high enough at Pre-shot test.
    Aquí no tenemos muchos gatitos con diabetes, así que no tengo una buena idea de cuánta comida necesita Otto. Definitivamente más de lo que está comiendo ahora. Una especie de "pensar en voz alta" aquí, haciendo un poco de "lluvia de ideas", así que trate de seguir mi pensamiento y razonamiento. El "por qué" detrás de mi respuesta. Omita todo esto y mire al final para obtener un resumen si lo prefiere.

    Sigue creciendo. Gatito activo, probablemente jugando mucho, así que quema calorías rápidamente. Parece de bajo peso. Necesita más comida. ¿Pero cuánto es la pregunta? Mantener a Otto saludable y ayudarlo a recuperar algo de peso necesario. No demasiada comida porque no queremos que tenga sobrepeso. Es poco probable que tenga sobrepeso en una semana o incluso 2 o 3 semanas o un mes, pero es algo a considerar en el futuro. Necesidad de mantener la diabetes bajo control. Pero sin suficiente comida e insulina hay otros riesgos para la salud. Sin cetonas. Pruebas diarias de cetonas si es posible, para ser cauteloso. Para estar más seguro

    Me gustaría ver si Otto sería mejor con un alimento ligeramente más alto en carbohidratos. Aún menos del 10%. Más carbohidratos que el 1.9% de Feringa pueden ser mejores para él. Ayúdale a ganar más peso. Es un acto de equilibrio, como un artista de circo caminando por la cuerda floja. Simplemente no sabemos con certeza qué sería lo mejor para Otto. Tendremos que intentar ver qué sucede con un alimento con más carbohidratos.

    Encontré esta información en un par de lugares en Internet haciendo una búsqueda sobre la cantidad de comida para alimentar a un gatito.
    "Si está alimentando su comida enlatada, aliméntela tanto como comerá hasta los cuatro meses de edad, dividida en tres o cuatro comidas por día. Considere también el nivel de actividad de su gatito. De cuatro a seis meses, aliméntele aproximadamente 2/3 de una lata de 3 onzas por libra de peso corporal por día, y de seis meses a un año, aproximadamente media lata de 3 onzas por libra por día ".

    Usando esa recomendación que a 9,4 libras (4,25 kilos) por 1,5 onzas (42 gramos) = 14 onzas (400 gramos). Sin embargo, eso parece demasiado (14 onzas, casi 400 gramos). Definitivamente agregaría 2-3 onzas (56-85 gramos) más a la dieta de Otto, preferiblemente la cantidad más alta. Extienda el aumento de 3 onzas (85 gramos) de comida entre sus comidas actuales para que sea aproximadamente 11.5 onzas de comida. Luego, vuelva a evaluar en una semana con un puntaje de peso y condición corporal nuevamente (BCS). No estoy seguro de qué tamaño se usan latas (o bolsas) de alimentos. Esa cantidad de gramos no tiene que ser tan precisa.

    Más proteínas agregadas a la dieta de Otto. Un poco de pollo cocinado, aproximadamente del 15% al 20% de su ingesta total de alimentos aumentaría su proteína y lo ayudaría a aumentar de peso. En lugar de agregar más comida enlatada para gatos a la dieta de Otto, creo que un poco más de proteína podría ser mejor. Entonces, alrededor de 2 onzas de carne cocida, pollo, cerdo, carne de res. Lo que quiera. La otra onza de comida aumentada sería 1 onza de comida enlatada.

    "Según Cat Info, puede agregar 1 parte de proteína magra a 5 partes de comida enlatada para gatos, mezclar bien y repartir. Esto aumenta la proteína y reduce los carbohidratos y las grasas". El sitio web catinfo.org de la Dra. Lisa Pierson es mi fuente para el 20% de proteína adicional. El pollo sin piel es probablemente la mejor opción.

    Más comida es mi respuesta final. Ya veremos cómo va.

    El artículo de Tufts Veterinary https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/01/diabetic_cat_diet/ (Tufts es una conocida escuela veterinaria donde vivo) habla sobre qué alimentar a un gato diabético y menciona qué hacer si tiene bajo peso.

    La versión condensada está aquí.
    • Otto tiene bajo peso
    • 20% más de proteínas para ayudar a Otto a aumentar de peso
    • 2 onzas más de comida, pollo sin piel cocinado para ayudar con el aumento de peso
    • 1 onza más de comida enlatada para ayudar con el aumento de peso
    • alimentos enlatados con mayor contenido de carbohidratos, pero aún <10%
    • pruebe algunos de los carbohidratos superiores Animoda y Granatapet de la lista europea de alimentos
    • Lista de alimentos para gatos del Reino Unido y Europa UK and Europe Cat Food List
    • vigile los niveles de glucemia con pruebas regulares
    • puede necesitar un poquito más de insulina. Si vemos los niveles de glucemia lo suficientemente altos en la prueba previa al disparo.
     
  61. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Making a little recap of today so far no insulin was given because Otto was at 125 at preshoot, so he got breakfast ( and was very happy) and Myka kept monitoring him this were his results

    AMPS 125 ( No insulin given) and he got breakfast
    +1 133
    +2 132
    +3 122 ( and had some food afterwards)
    +6 124

    Mayka has already order some food that is about 7.2% that she would be getting late today or early tomorrow so she could probably start giving it to him tomorrow, but just a thought considering his numbers today which are almost normal and lower than the previous ones , I'm not sure anymore about giving it to him and try to give more insulin or just keeping him as he is and see if his numbers lower on their own a bit more
     
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  62. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Not seeing a "food bump" in the BG numbers with the food given after pre-shot at +1 or +2. Also not seeing a "food bump" increasing the BG readings between the +3 and the BG test at +6. In other words, looks like his body is producing enough insulin to counteract the food and keep his BG readings down.

    If his body was not producing enough insulin on it's own, I would expect the BG readings to increase a couple of hours after food. The fact that the BG readings are staying basically the same (flat) without insulin tells is his pancreas is working to produce some insulin. Not quite enough, but some. That is a very encouraging and positive sign.

    My concern is that Otto needs to gain weight. He is still a kitten and growing. It's why I suggested adding some more protein like plain cooked chicken to his diet. The additional protein will help him gain weight and reduce the possibility of losing muscle mass. That is especially noticeable in the hindquarters on a cat. Hindquarters (hips area) should be about the same width as the shoulders. If Mayka can see that Otto's body tapers in towards his tail, in a broad U or V shape, that is indicative of muscle wasting.

    Also, the lower carb food doesn't have as many calories. Not a big difference, but with a couple of cans a day it could make a difference in Otto gaining weight or not.

    It's a toss up. I think he needs the tiniest bit more insulin. Maybe only one drop. Not sure if that is possible for Mayka to do. The risk is that she gives too much insulin and he has a hypo. It's her choice. It's her cat and her decision.

    We want to see numbers all down in the green range at preshot. With maybe an occasional blue, for 14 days. Like when we are doing an OTJ trial. Take a look at Billy and Juls spreadsheet (SS). He's also using Prozinc. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQAobmPCd0hXSnyC1SWF1r7CQLWN83jIZArIANR0xqDhDa1cjR1RC5jKXXJF1102Rvu-8hggWzrNW2-/pubhtml and is on an OTJ trial.
     
  63. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    @Juls and Billy
    Come take a look. I gave your Billy's SS as an example for Veronica to look at.
     
  64. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    I totally agree Otto is a kitten and he has to have proper nutrition for him to grow healthy and not have problems later on I've already told Mayka he needs to eat more and that together with the higher carbs can probably help also with the dosing

    His SS is really impressive, it appears he went quite quickly into remission how long had he been diabetic?

    I can see she still shooted at 177 but nothing lower you think that could apply to Otto ?
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  65. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2019
    I am not sure how long Billy was diabetic. He was diagnosed 12/27/19, but I suspect he was diabetic for some time before that. His BGL at the vet was over 500. He had been exhibiting signs of neuropathy in his back legs for months, but we didn't realize that was what it was until it suddenly improved. (not jumping, eventually litter caked in back feet.) I think Billy got diabetes because of steroid shots, a food switch to a different grain free dry type I did not realize had more carbs, and being overweight.

    Vet prescribed Hill's dry, which I refused to feed, and my research on what I should feed brought me to this group. Every cat is different. But here's what we did with Bill. Although he is fat, I have never limited his food, except for 2 hours pre-test. I wanted to deal with the diabetes first. I feed him whenever he's hungry, many small meals day and night. We believe he has lost weight just from the diet change, but official weigh-in will be at the vet on the 31st.

    We started with a complete switch to wet food on day 2. (He was too sick to eat at all day one, and only a few bites day 2) We fed a combination of low and higher carb wet food until day 5. Tested often because of diet switch. Day five we switched to only wet food with carb level under 10%. Day 10 we fine tuned diet again and switched to only canned food under 4% carb content. Day 13, we started to have to skip doses. Day 15 he had his last dose. We considered raising carb content of food in order to dose, because we were still getting numbers a little too high, but the numbers seemed to be trending downwards, so we decided to stick with very low carb wet food and skip doses. Today is Billy's 14th day with no insulin.

    Every cat is different. I think what worked with Billy is three main things:
    -We fed very low carb food.
    -We fed many small meals to help keep blood sugar level stable.
    -We did not limit food at all, but fed when hungry.

    Plus patience and the fact that Billy is awesome.

    Edited to add, we did add plain cooked chicken to Billy's diet on day 10, but as a treat, not as a main source of food.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  66. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Congratulations !!!
     
    Mayka Otto and Juls and Billy like this.
  67. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    @Deb & Wink
    I don’t think adding 20% plain cooked chicken is a good idea for a kitten. It is really important they get the correct balance of nutrients, especially calcium while they are growing. And 20% plain chicken would throw that balance out as it has no calcium at all or some of the other essential vitamins and minerals. .
    I agree Otto needs more to eat than a grown cat, but I would increase the calories in the food rather than add plain chicken.
    @Veronica & Babu-chiri do you think canned kitten food is available in Spain. That would provide all the nutrients and is usually more calorie dense. I would stick with complete nutritionally balanced canned food.
     
  68. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Thanks Bron for your comment on the chicken addition to Otto's diet. That is why we say we are a peer reviewed message board.

    What worked for Billy could work for kitten Otto. But ECID. Every Cat is Different. ECID Every Caregiver is Different. ESID Every Situation is Different.

    I don't think we should have Otto on the lowest carb food possible. Mainly because he needs those higher carbs and protein to help him grow up big and strong, into an adult cat.

    I'd much rather see how Otto does on a slightly higher carb food, than to try the tiny drop dose of insulin at this point. Let's see Mayka do that food change starting tomorrow morning, if she has the 7+% carb foods. Animonda Carny Kitten is a selection of flavors at around 6.5% carbs. Grau Gourmet Kitten at 8% carbs is another possibility. The other kitten foods on that european food chart are about 3% or lower.

    I do think if Otto has a BG high enough to give insulin (I'd want to see a BG of at least 180) a tiny drop may help. Mayka needs to practice the drop dosing with colored water and twisting that syringe plunger to see how many drops come out of the syringe when she has what she thinks is 1 tiny drop left in the syringe.

    Mayka could try that tiny 1 drop dose IF and ONLY if she is around to monitor, her internet connection is completely stable, someone or really several people that are extremely experienced with hypo stays with her to guide her, too many factors to list really. Power could go out here while she is trying this and then where would she be? It's the middle of winter here and trees come down on power lines if we get high winds or wet heavy snow. My internet connect gets flaky sometimes with my internet provider. Happened twice so far today.

    TOO RISKY in my opinion. I think it is way too risky and would jeopardize Otto's life. I never want to be the person responsible for making a decision that might end a cat's life or risk brain damage or worse.

    What my skills and knowledge levels are and what I am able to do is not the equivalent of what a new member is able to do. I've been here for 7 years, but I'm still learning things and can make mistakes, forget to include a crucial piece of information at a critical time. My skills at reading spreadsheets is growing with each one I review. I can sometimes picture what is happening in between the tests that do happen. More test data is good, especially in the nighttime cycle, but it's really rough on the caregiver. Really, really, rough. Lack of sleep, interrupted sleep, other life responsibilities. If Mayka gets up in the middle of the night for another reason, such as to use the bathroom, she might try to get a BG test in then. I hate to stress people out when they are first learning about treating feline diabetes. They are already stressed and overwhelmed enough with learning their cat is diabetic in the first place.

    I tend to be a bit conservative in the dosing decisions when replying to people. If I see something really out of wack, I jump in and tell them to lower the dose and wait for the bouncing to clear. AND get more tests. Especially during the night time cycle. Cats are more active then and often drop into the green number ranges at night. I imagine that Otto is extremely playful at night. Doesn't Mayka have another kitten?

    There are risks with his BG levels still being a bit high, in the blue ranges. Higher carb food may actually help to bring those numbers down. I know, it's counter intuitive but that is how it works sometimes.
    Read these 2 posts about that:
    Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods
    Low Carb vs Lower Carb

    The final decision is of course Mayka's. She needs to be absolutely 100% sure of what she wants to do. She needs to discuss this with her vet too. I'm just one person giving my layperson's opinion.
     
  69. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Is Otto an indoor only cat?
     
  70. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Deb, life is a long learning experience I find. I learn new things every day.

    Yes I agree that higher carbs might help bring up the BG a bit... enough to give some insulin. Mayka and Veronica were looking into seeing if they could source some higher carb food around 8 to 10%. However I see that that BG levels have dropped further into the 120-130s so Otto may have other ideas.
     
  71. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    [QUOTE = "Deb & Wink, post: 2516144, member: 7964"] ¿Otto es un gato solo en interiores? [/ QUOTE]

    Yes Deb
     
  72. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Yes Mayka got word from the seller that she may be getting the food tomorrow so far the PMPS was 135 so no insulin tonight either, given the trend tomorrow morning he'll probably be around that number too, Otto did got some extra food (still from the very low carb ) for dinner today though
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  73. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Do you think you could source kitten canned food?
    I’m glad he is eating well.
    You are being a wonderful help to Mayka, Veronica.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  74. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Mayka is looking into that, I'm not sure what she has available and finding one higher than what he's getting and under 10% it appears is not that easy but she'll keep looking, still at least for a few days maybe she can use the one she found is not kitten specific but it appears it is suitable for all ages which is better than giving just adult food
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  75. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Sounds good. I know it can be hard to find some foods in certain countries. You just have to work with what you can get.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  76. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Animonda Carny Kitten is a selection of flavors at around 6.5% carbs. Grau Gourmet Kitten at 8% carbs is another possibility. The other kitten foods on that european food chart are about 3% or lower.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  77. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    I see that Mayka fed the old Feringa food this morning.
    I thought she was going to try the higher carb food she got yesterday?
    What is the name of the higher carb food she did buy?

    Veo que Mayka alimentó la vieja comida de Feringa esta mañana.
    ¿Pensé que iba a probar la comida alta en carbohidratos que recibió ayer?
    ¿Cuál es el nombre de la comida alta en carbohidratos que compró?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  78. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    [QUOTE = "Deb & Wink, post: 2516390, member: 7964"] Veo que Mayka alimentó la vieja comida de Feringa esta mañana.
    ¿Pensé que iba a probar la comida alta en carbohidratos que recibí ayer?
    ¿Cuál es el nombre de la comida alta en carbohidratos que compró? [/ CITA]

    Hola, demora del pedido de Zooplus, llega esta tarde.
    Animonda Carny Kitten
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
    Veronica & Babu-chiri likes this.
  79. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Ok, I understand the Zooplus cat food order has been delayed.
    Order should arrive this afternoon. Hopefully it does.
    Anime Carny Kitten will be fed to Otto after the shipment of the food arrives.
    I think that is the food from the European Food Chart that has the name of Animonda Carny Kitten.
    If it is, that food is about 6.5% carbohydrates.
    There are 4 different flavors available. Not sure which ones Mayka purchased.
    Mayka, please make a note in the Remarks column on Otto's spreadsheet(SS) of which flavor was fed for each meal.

    We'll see how Otto's blood glucose readings do on that food over the next few days.

    Sorry, I forgot to translate my questions to Spanish in my last post. Will remember to do that next time. I will go back and edit my last post and give the Spanish translation also. My apologies for forgetting to do that translation so you could understand what I said.

    Ok, entiendo que el pedido de comida para gatos Zooplus se ha retrasado.
    El pedido debería llegar esta tarde. Espero que sí.
    Anime Carny Kitten será alimentado a Otto después de que llegue el envío de la comida.
    Creo que esa es la comida de la Carta Europea de Alimentos que se llama Animonda Carny Kitten.
    Si es así, ese alimento tiene aproximadamente 6.5% de carbohidratos.
    Hay 4 sabores diferentes disponibles. No estoy seguro de cuáles compró Mayka.
    Mayka, anote en la columna de Comentarios en la hoja de cálculo (SS) de Otto qué sabor se alimentó para cada comida.

    Veremos cómo las lecturas de glucosa en sangre de Otto en esa comida en los próximos días.

    Lo siento, olvidé traducir mis preguntas al español en mi última publicación. Recordará hacer eso la próxima vez. Volveré y editaré mi última publicación y también daré la traducción al español. Mis disculpas por olvidarse de hacer esa traducción para que puedan entender lo que dije.
     
  80. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hi guys so far we are still trying to get some higher carb food appropriate for Otto, because we checked and it appear that the Animonda Carny Kitten must have changed the formula from when the list was made to now and it appears it's pretty much the same she was giving, well a bit higher around 3.76 % but not enough for what we are looking for so for now Mayka is going to try with the all ages-adult one to see if his numbers go a bit higher, fingers crossed
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
    Mayka Otto and Deb & Wink like this.
  81. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Thanks for update Veronica. I hope you will be able to source some suitable kitten food as the formula is better for Otto.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  82. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Wow...I see a 96 preshot! Otto is on a mission I think!
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  83. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Wow ... veo un 96 preshot! ¡Otto está en una misión, creo!

    Nice to see lower blood glucose numbers for Otto.
    I see you fed a small amount of chicken breast yesterday, 5 grams with 4 of his meals.
    That may be helping Otto's blood glucose to be lower also.

    Es bueno ver números de glucosa en sangre más bajos para Otto.
    Veo que alimentaste una pequeña cantidad de pechuga de pollo ayer, 5 gramos con 4 de sus comidas.
    Eso puede estar ayudando a que la glucosa en la sangre de Otto también sea más baja.
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  84. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Yes Otto is on a mission and behaving really well, I guess eating more because Mayka is giving him more food besides the extra chicken breast is making him happy and encouraging him .

    Mayka hasn't changed the food because it has been more trouble than expected to find one but I think that if he continues down this path he may not need the food change after all
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  85. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Good evening Mayka.
    Otto's blood glucose numbers are looking very good.
    Otto has not needed insulin for 7 and a half days now.
    Hopefully he does not need any more insulin.
    Is Otto gaining any weight in the last week?

    Buenas tardes Mayka.
    Los niveles de glucosa en sangre de Otto se ven muy bien.
    Otto no ha necesitado insulina durante 7 días y medio.
    Esperemos que no necesite más insulina.
    ¿Otto está ganando peso en la última semana?
     
    Mayka Otto likes this.
  86. Mayka Otto

    Mayka Otto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2020
    [QUOTE = "Deb & Wink, post: 2518993, miembro: 7964"] Buenas noches Mayka.
    Los niveles de glucosa en sangre de Otto se ven muy bien.
    Otto no ha necesitado insulina durante 7 días y medio.
    Esperemos que no necesitemos más insulina.
    ¿Otto está ganando peso en la última semana?

    Buenas tardes Mayka.
    Los niveles de glucosa en sangre de Otto se ven muy bien.
    Otto no ha necesitado insulina durante 7 días y medio.
    Esperemos que no necesitemos más insulina.
    ¿Otto está ganando peso en la última semana? [/ CITA]

    Hi deb
    Yes, Otto's glucose levels are going very well (the breast should be helping). My boy is doing great. We cross fingers to keep it that way without insulin.
    From weight to cattle 50g. As Verónica has commented, we continue with the same food and chicken breast. I was having trouble finding cans with 7-8% carbohydrates

    I want to thank everyone for the help provided. Without you Otto would not be so good, I will always be very grateful.
    Thank you thank you thank you !!!
     
    Deb & Wink likes this.
  87. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Hi Mayka!
    Have you been able to find any kitten food for Otto yet?
    If Otto is staying in normal numbers, there is no real need for the higher carb food at the moment.
    I suggested the higher carb food to see if it helped to raise the BG high enough to give some insulin.
    But Otto has other ideas!:)

    I would concentrate on trying to find some kitten food as it has higher levels of certain vitamins and minerals that growing kittens need.
    You are doing a wonderful job looking after Otto:)
     
  88. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hi Otto is on kitten food the very low carb food the problem was finding higher carb kitten food, which Mayka hasn't found but as it turned out while she was looking for it, Otto had a different agenda and it appears for the moment at lest (fingers crossed) that he won't need it, but he is on an age appropriate (kitten food)
     
  89. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hi everyone I just wanted to let you know that Mayka and Otto are celebrating

    Otto is OTJ!!!

    Thank you everyone for your help
     
  90. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Congratulations to Mayka and her kitten Oscar from Spain!
    ¡Felicitaciones a Mayka y su gatito Oscar de España!

    How old is Oscar now? Is he 11 months old now? Is he getting bigger?
    ¿Cuántos años tiene Oscar ahora? ¿Tiene 11 meses ahora? ¿Se está haciendo más grande?

    We would love to see a picture of Oscar if that is possible.
    Nos encantaría ver una foto de Oscar si eso es posible.

    Mayka does not understand English. So we translate what we say to her into Spanish. Veronica also helps Mayka to understand what we say.
    Mayka no entiende inglés. Entonces traducimos lo que le decimos al español. Veronica también ayuda a Mayka a entender lo que decimos.
     

Share This Page