Dosing Advice Needed for Novolin

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by tcmeowmixtc, Aug 1, 2017.

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  1. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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  2. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I'd try 0.5 for a few days to see if the bouncing will settle and let the preshots come down. Once the preshots come down the dose can be adjusted again.
     
  3. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Are there syringes that have .5 on them? I currently have ones that go up by one unit each time.
     
  4. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Yep sure are. My fave place to buy them is Adwdiabetes.com
     
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  5. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Thank you!
    T.C. is used to 6mm and I found some available in store at Walmart called "BD Ultra-Fine Half-Unit 31G 0.3cc 6mm Syringes". Would these be okay? I'm not sure what the .3cc means however.
     
  6. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Yes those syringes will do the trick! The .3cc just means the volume of liquid the syringe holds and you won't be injecting anywhere near that much!
     
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  7. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Ok, his PMPS was 252 on One Touch Ultra. Fed him, then gave him 0.5 units. Gonna check in again at +2. What should it ideally be?
     
  8. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Hi,
    You're getting some extremely steep drops in BG; which looks to me like the effect of the insulin itself and the fact of TC dropping out of a bounce.
    I wonder if it's possible to level that out a bit with food...

    Novolin N can drop the BG fast in the first few hours of the cycle. For that reason it is helpful to feed the cat and then wait for a while before giving the shot.

    The general recommendation here for Novolin N is to feed the cat an hour before giving insulin. This is to ensure there is food in the cat’s system for when the insulin starts to work, and to help ensure that the BG doesn’t drop too fast or too low.
    Ideally, the sequence would be: 1. test BG. 2. feed. 3. wait for an hour. 4. give the shot.
    (If you're not able to wait for an hour then even waiting for 30 minutes would be helpful).

    If you do a BG test an hour or two after the shot, and find the BG is dropping too fast, it's often possible to slow down the rate of BG drop by feeding a small snack of ordinary food.
    (If the cat’s BG is actually in danger of dropping too low, DO post on the forum for advice immediately.)

    When the BG drops too fast this may be sensed as ‘dangerous’ by the body whether the cat is actually in danger or not. (‘Too fast’ could mean faster than 100 mg/dL [5.5 mmol/L] per hour - although the ‘trigger’ number varies from cat to cat.) When this happens the body may seek to protect itself by releasing stored glucose, thereby 'bouncing' the BG to a much higher level. This is why giving a snack can be helpful to slow down the rate at which the BG is dropping.

    We generally suggest that caregivers using Novolin N aim to not let the BG drop lower than 100 - 120 mg/dL [5.6 - 6.7 mmol], as measured on a human meter, at the peak of the cycle.
    But since you're using Alphatrak2 you may want to aim to keep the BG even higher, maybe at least above 125 - 145 mg/dL [7 - 8 mmol], or higher (since there is no reliable way to convert human meter values to Alphatrak values).
    Aiming to not let the BG drop below these levels helps to give a further buffer of safety.

    This is the lowest preshot number you've given insulin at, so you'll need to monitor closely.
    If you're seeing a low number - and there is still some time to go until the peak of the cycle - you may need to take action to ensure that the BG doesn’t drop much lower, and monitor until past the peak of the cycle.
    It may be that all that is needed is to feed a little snack of ordinary food if the BG is dropping too fast or too far. But let's see how things are after the next BG test.

    Eliz
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  9. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Wow, this is great information to have!
    I did not know about waiting after he eats. I will be sure to do that! His +2 was 226 on the One Touch Ultra (still waiting on my delivery for more alphatrak strips). I usually give him a snack of canned low-carb food at +2 and +6. By ordinary, do you mean dry food?
    Thank you for all this information!
     
  10. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Also, I was thinking of cooking some chicken in the oven, letting it chill, and then cutting it up into bite-sized pieces to use as treats. Is this an okay thing for cats with diabetes?
     
  11. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    If ordinary low carb canned does the trick, that's great. Testing about 20 mins after the snack should let you know if it's slowing down the BG fast enough..

    Plain cooked chicken is a great treat for cats. :cat:
    .
     
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  12. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Just checked his +3 and it was 114 on human meter. Gave him a snack to see if I can bring it up. It seemed to be going well, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. :banghead:
     
  13. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    @tcmeowmixtc , that BG is dropping fast and looks like it could drop too low.
    I'd suggest you feed a little bit of something higher carb. Do you have any high carb wet that you could feed a little gravy from?
    If not, I'd suggest you add a tiny bit of honey or syrup to a small amount of low carb, and feed that now.
    .
     
  14. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    You're not doing anything wrong. This is new territory for you. :bighug:
    .
     
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  15. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Thank you. It's been very stressful lately. I do have some gravy lovers fancy feast!
     
  16. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Great! For safety's sake (because of that steep drop) I'd suggest feeding a teaspoon of the gravy, and then re-testing in 10 - 15 minutes, no longer.
    .
     
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  17. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    @tcmeowmixtc , if his blood glucose is continuing to drop after that, then, depending on the number, you may need give a little honey or syrup to quickly bring the numbers up. Or that can be mixed into a tiny amount of gravy if that's easier. Then test after 10 - 15 minutes.
    And, if necessary, you may need to repeat that action until you are past the peak (lowest number) of the cycle.
    You need to try to keep the numbers above 68 on your AT meter for safety's sake.

    Take deep breaths. I know it's stressful. But you're doing just fine. :bighug:
    .
     
  18. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    @tcmeowmixtc
    Do we have another BG test result yet?
    Really need to see that that's OK....
    Will wait by the computer here for your update...
    .
     
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  19. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Much better preshot!
     
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  20. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Elizabeth and Bertie So glad you've been here to help. It looks like she may have switched over to a One Touch Ultra meter even though signature still shows AT2. Regardless, still hope she gets another reading soon!
     
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  21. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Oh, thanks for that info, Linda. That's something of a relief...

    Edited to add; ah yes, I see the mention of human meter now....
    .
     
  22. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    BG now at 143 on One Touch. Sorry about the confusion. Will update signature!
     
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  23. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Phew! That's better.

    No probs! It's safer to think someone is using an Alphatrak when they're actually using a human meter, than to think they're using a human meter when they're actually using an alphatrak!
    .
     
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  24. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Thank you so much for all your help and caring. It really means a lot.
     
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  25. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    So, was it the low carb that stopped the BG dropping? Or was it the higher carb? It's helpful to keep a note of what works for your own cat in case you find yourself in a similar situation in the future.
    .
     
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  26. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    You're very welcome. That's what we're here for. And we've all been where you are now.... :bighug::bighug::bighug:
    .
     
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  27. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    The higher carb was what stopped it I'm pretty sure. I had been giving him low carb up until the +3 reading and it still dropped.
     
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  28. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    It'll be interesting to see what TC's blood glucose does now. It may rise, or there is the possibility that it will drop again.
    This is quite a learning curve, isn't it, this FD malarky?!

    How many hours into the cycle is TC now?

    Oh, and would you like to tell us your name?
    .
     
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  29. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    It definitely is a learning curve!
    He is 4 and a half hours in, so I'm looking to test again at 5 hours in and hopefully 6. Then 5 hours of sleep to start all over again. :coffee:
    And I'm Shannon! :D
     
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  30. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Shannon, are you planning to use the One Touch meter from now on? Is that what the asterisks beside readings on the spreadsheet designate?
    If that's the case, then you need to insert another row into your spreadsheet that indicates you are now using a human meter. If you need help to do that, let us know. Perhaps a note in the top bar indicating the meter change as of 'DATE' would be good too just so anyone helping doesn't get confused. This is not critical right now because as Eliz says, being too conservative isn't a problem but as you get closer to regulation it will become more important.
     
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  31. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    I ran out of alphatrak strips and Amazon couldn't get them to me until today (even with one day shipping.) Then, if it wasn't long enough, our mailbox will not open. So the strips are in there, but I can't get to them!
    So, I plan on using the alphatrak as soon as I can get into the mailbox! (hopefully tomorrow.) Should I add a row in for the past few days?
     
  32. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    No I don't think that's necessary but perhaps a note in the comments just to say the readings with * were with One Touch meter for future reference.

    Hope you manage to get your mailbox fixed soon. I have a different problem with mine. We've been having torrential rains every afternoon all week and the mailperson has not been closing the door all the way so my mail has been a tad soggy! :banghead:
     
  33. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Okay. I've updated the comments section and signature, so hopefully I can avoid confusing people in the future. :oops:
    Oh no! Sorry about your mail! Sounds like some intense weather! At least from a Californians perspective haha. ;)
     
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  34. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    It's been a very wet summer here and we'd love to share the rain with the west coast but Mother Nature just isn't co-operating!:rolleyes:
     
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  35. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I made that suggestion a few days ago when the two meters were being used interchangeably in the same cycle. I had also suggested that an explanation for the asterisks be added to the notes section of the SS. :)
     
  36. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Shannon, it looks like the amount and type of food you gave was sufficient to stop a BG drop of 112 points per hour in its tracks, and to effectively abort the cycle (since the BG continued to rise.)
    This is useful information, and it's well worth remembering this response for the future.

    Food can be an extremely useful tool for 'steering the curve'; and it's good to know how certain foods affect our own cats. ...You may not get exactly the same response from the same food in a future situation, but this is very valuable experience.
    You may find that in a similar situation in the future - if you feel confident to do so - you could try to give a little less food and manage to slow or stop the BG dropping without causing it to rise. But with cats there are no guarantees, haha!

    It's possible, of course, that the BG rise was also a bit of bounce from the steep BG drop this morning.

    It also seems that doing the +2 and +3 tests has given you some very good information today. And it might be that these would be good times to test in the future to clue you to how the insulin cycle is likely to go.

    Oh, that 252 preshot was very nice to see this morning. Let's hope for more preshots like that. :cat:

    Well done, Shannon. You're doing great! :bighug:
     
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  37. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a little over correction.
     
  38. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Indeed! I had changed to asterisks and added it in the notes section, but didn't update my signature. :oops:
    It seems so based on the high preshot today. :banghead:
     
  39. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    So I would say over 300 do 0.5 and under 300 shoot slightly less than 0.5.
     
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  40. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry, Shannon. It's just one day. And it's all useful experience. :bighug::bighug::bighug:

    Janet's dosing suggestion above looks like a good idea. And hopefully you will soon see the numbers level out a bit with the reduced dose.

    Has your vet suggested a threshold number below which you shouldn't give insulin? (What we call a 'no shoot' number?).
    .
     
  41. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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  42. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Hi, I haven't updated my spreadsheet yet. He's doing okay. We had another really low reading after just 0.5 units of insulin. We are contacting the vet to see what we can do. They said it's better to miss a dose than give too much, so I'm just monitoring as best I can. Hopefully we will get some answers from them soon.
     
  43. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    How low did it go today? If too low do 0.25
     
  44. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    It went 56. I did the Karo syrup and some high carb food. And that was with a high preshot and only 0.5 units. I will lower it and ask the vet as well. Thank you.
     
  45. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    What hour did it go to 56? Can you write it into the spreadsheet? While it is low it's not quite a hypo on a human meter. If it was early you did the right thing. If it was at nadir you'd want to steer with just a bit of low or medium carb food so you don't over correct. It's crazy how sensitive he is to the insulin... He really crashes on just a few drops. Maybe levemir would be a more gentle insulin.
     
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  46. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    It was at 6 hours. Sorry I can't update my spreadsheet! My meter is at home with all the numbers on them. Let me update my signature because I am using the alphatrak now.
    Yeah, it's very worrisome that he drops so low. I will ask the vet about the different insulin.
     
  47. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok well that was probably the lowest it went....still to close for comfort. You only went half way to the first line, right? Like as in a few drops, right? (Just checking because we've had people that were confused and thought the 5 was a half.
     
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  48. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Yeah, I was a bit panicked when I saw 56 on the alphatrak. He didn't show any symptoms of hypo either. His ears were warm though. Not sure if that's something?
    Yes halfway to one. Used a magnifying glass to make sure. Going to pick up some half-unit syringes too.
     
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  49. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear that, Shannon. ...It must be very stressful...

    However, it looks like TC's insulin requirements are dropping quite dramatically... ...If he's very sensitive to insulin then it may well be, as Janet says above, that a switch to a different insulin would be appropriate.

    I'm wondering what TC's BG would be if you stopped insulin for a couple of days. It's something I seldom suggest, but in TC's case it would enable the bouncing to settle out, and it would give you a baseline for his BG levels. ...With all the bouncing that's going on at the moment it's hard to know what is caused by the bounce and what is TC's 'actual' BG....

    It has happened, on rare occasions here, that a cat has ceased to need insulin but that wasn't apparent because the insulin shots were actually raising the BG levels, and the cat had been caught in a kind of chronic rebound.

    If drastically reducing or stopping insulin we'd always advise that you check your kitty's pee for ketones. That's not difficult. It only involves dipping a ketone test strip in a little drop of pee. Crumpling plastic food wrap loosely over the litter tray is a good way to catch a sample - it collects in the creases. And some folks here hold a spoon under the kitty's butt while they're peeing (!)

    It's good that you're getting half unit syringes. That will make measuring small doses a lot easier. And it's also possible to measure insulin in 'drops' if need be. There are quite a few techniques here for measuring teensy tiny doses.

    Sending you reassuring (((hugs))), Shannon.
     
  50. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Hi.

    Thanks for all the help. I was gone a couple nights and did not feel comfortable with T.C. being unmonitored when he's been dropping so low. On my spreadsheet I did take a couple of blood tests during this time. So, my preshot was 466. I gave him 0.25 units of insulin and his +4 is 110. :banghead: We have a vet appointment on Monday. They told me to bring in a record of his numbers from now until then. I'm definitely thinking he needs to be switched to a different insulin. What is the technique for measuring in drops? Should going lower than 0.25 be my next step.

    Thanks again. This is really tough and your support is really appreciated. :bighug:
     
  51. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I agree that a longer acting insulin would seem to be the way to go with T.C. He's getting pretty steep drops with the Novolin and those high pre-shot numbers are likely being influenced by bouncing as a result making it hard to determine what his "normal" pre-shots at this time are.
    Do you have syringes with the half unit markings yet or are you eyeballing 0.25u on a full unit marked syringe?

    One method of paring down doses as Eliz mentioned is a drop method. Get a used syringe and draw up coloured water to what you perceive to be 0.25u then methodically push out a drop at a time to see how many drops are in that volume of fluid. Then if, for example you want a dose of 0.125u you draw up the quarter unit and let out half the drops you counted for the quarter unit dose.

    Below is further information about tiny doses using the drop size and syringe markings as a guide.

    Fine Dose Pictorial Guide

    Fine dose gradations:
    • 0.5U = exactly half a unit
    • 0.4U = skinny 0.5 touching the line
    • 0.3U = skinny 0.5 with daylight under the line
    • 0.2U = fat zero with daylight over the line
    • 0.1U = fat zero barely touching the line
    Pictorial guide using a U-100 syringe marked with half units:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    a pin (for comparison)..... a drop (.1u) .............. a half drop (.05u)...
     
  52. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Thank you for the information on drops. And I did get the half-unit syringes, so I'm doing half of 0.5.
     
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  53. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    What other slow-acting insulins are there? You mentioned levemir. Is that the best one? I want to go into the vet with a lot of information. Would these be checked differently than Novolin? Like, would the nadir be way different?
     
  54. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Levemir and lantus tend to be about gentler. You can look at more info on that insulins specific forum and at the spreadsheets of people who use it.
     
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  55. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Hi guys,
    T.C.'s numbers have been all over the place. I'm in a tough place because my parents are the ones providing money for his treatment, but they want to keep it as cheap as possible, so I haven't been able to go to the vet or switch insulins. I'm not sure how to explain the problems to them, but they're not really budging. I don't know, I guess I'm just venting.
     
  56. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read through the entire thread, but is there any chance you could possible see a different vet? One that would be willing to use a different insulin?

    A lot of us have had to switch vets when our original one refused to listen
     
  57. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Hmm. How much are they paying for his Novolin N? Also, the human meter is going to be more affordable for daily testing. ReliOn Confirm/Micro from Walmart. Test strips in store are $0.36/strip whereas AT2 strips are about $1/strip. After initial supplies, ReliOn strips can be found online for even less.;)
     
  58. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    I would like to use a new vet we visited, but my parents didn't like them because they wanted to do a urinalysis for $250. I feel this vet is more knowledgeable and cares more, but it's been tough to get my parents to understand.
    I think they're paying around $30 for the novilin. And I will probably switch to human meter to save money once he is regulated.
     
  59. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Could you add what food you're feeding to your signature?
     
  60. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Like more specific? Sure!

    Edit: added "Classic." Is that specific enough? It's the poultry and beef ones. Is FF okay, or do I write it out?
     
  61. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    It would certainly be cheaper to use a human meter.
    ...I do agree though that it would be worth trying another insulin for TC. He's getting such steep BG swings on the Novolin. Other insulins will cost more though.... Might your parents be persuaded to get a different insulin if they knew they could save money on the BG testing supplies....?

    Another option to consider is that it may be possible for your vet to get you a free sample of BCP PZI insulin for you to try.... This should typically drop the blood glucose more gently than Novolin, and may have a longer duration.
    Vets can get a free 5ml vial of BCP PZI. I think the sample is a U100 insulin, so that would give you 500 units of insulin....for free.... So, if, for example a cat had 2 units twice a day that would last about 4 months so long as the insulin didn't lose it's potency...
    I understand it can take up to a few weeks to get the insulin though, so you'd still be working with Novolin in the meantime.
    The info that your vet needs is on this page:
    http://bcpvetpharm.com/bcp-pzi-bovine-insulin/
    .
     
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  62. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok thanks. Yeah just making sure it wasn't gravy. :)
     
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  63. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Some have been having good luck getting lantus cheap or free with the pet discount cards.
     
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  64. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

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    Thank you for this info! I will definitely bring this to their attention.
    My mother was reading a lot online about getting cats into remission, so I'm hoping she'll see that the way T.C.'s numbers are now are not good. And I will also talk to them about saving money with the human meter. :) Thank you for the suggestions!
    Oh yes I see! I was so sad to learn the gravy ones were high-carb because T.C. used to love gravy ones. I used to give one to him for his birthday. :joyful:
    Oh! This is great to hear!
     
  65. Elinor & Sibon

    Elinor & Sibon Member

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    Jul 18, 2017
    @Elizabeth and Bertie Hi, I'm sorry to barge in on this thread but I seemed like I could learn a lot from it. I inject my cat with Humulin NPH. Is that the same as Novolin N?
    I didn't know about the trick with feeding the cat an hour before the shot. Could you have a look at my spreadsheet and see if your recommendation applies for me as well?
    Thank so much.
     
  66. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Actually, you might want to switch now. Getting a cat regulated can take many weeks or longer. It's never a short term endeavour.
     
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  67. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    You can also still regulate him with a human meter and keep your AT2 for curves. Which insulin did you want to try? Since you're in the states, you could try the Lantus savings card which can get you 1 Lantus solstar pen each month FOR FREE! :woot:. And as Janet stated, there are some suppliers who charge $30 +S&H for 1 Lantus pen. And there's Eliz's suggestion to see if you could get a PZI free sample.
    Maybe you can persuade her it's not a highly guaranteed event but because the best treatment was set for them, that they were able to succeed ;). We'll try to help you with any additional money saving tips :bighug:.
    You could try a FF Roasted or Chunky flavour for his birthday treat :), still <6% carbs and NOT pate :smuggrin:
     
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  68. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Hi Elinor, Humulin N and Novolin N are both brand names for NPH insulin, and so variants of the same.

    Your cat seems be quite a bit more stable on 'N' than tceowmixtc's cat is. ...Some of those blue preshot numbers are rather intriguing, because N doesn't usually have a long duration... Hmmm....
    I see that when you skip shots because of low preshot number the BG tends to rise (not unsurprising); although the rise seems fairly gentle...

    I wonder if there's a case for lowering your preshot threshold to something like 180, and in that instance just give a teesny tiny amount of insulin rather than nothing at all, even it's only something like 0.25 of a unit (as long as you are able to monitor and take any action if the BG looks like dropping low...)
    Going to tag a few folks to look at your SS, and see if we can get some other opinions on this.... @Kris & Teasel , @Yong , @JanetNJ , @Squalliesmom , @MrWorfMen's Mom , @Tuxedo Mom
    .
     
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  69. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    When I see such a discrepancy between AM and PMPSs, I would suggest lowering the dose slightly and keeping it the same both AM and PM. I think a case could be made for trying 0.75 u consistently AM and PM for a couple of days, barring any very low PSs (below 200? 190?) The dose has been changed often in response to PSs but that's a technique that's better used when there's more data to look at. At this point I think it has led to more erratic numbers.
     
  70. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    I would agree with trying to have regular dosing every 12 hours even if it meant giving smaller dose amounts depending on the preshot reading. This may be a case where a sliding scale may be useful. @JanetNJ is experienced with sliding scale dosing so she may be able to give some more advice on this approach.
     
  71. Tanya and Ducia

    Tanya and Ducia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Hi TC mom, sorry I didn't get your name:oops::)
    JanetNJ said:
    Some have been having good luck getting lantus cheap or free with the pet discount cards.
    I recently purchased 5 Lantus pens from Canada and when I opened the 1st pen on 07/20/2017 I didn't get the response I wanted right away, jumped in to the conclusion that the pen's gone bad and opened another one next cycle - seems working very well - check the SS/Remarks.
    I don't know if the 1st pen is spoilt - most likely it is OK, I kept it refrigerated ever since.
    I feels a bit awkward to offer something I suspected gone bad but it is yours for free if you want to give it a try. I am worry-wart and someone with experience has already told me that I rushed things up by opening the 2nd pen - chances are the 1st one was fine. But I love to imagine the worse case scenarios.

    If you want it you'll have to drive to Escondido to pick it up - I do not have car at present and cannot meet you half way. PM me if interested.

    Guys, are there any potential dangers to TC from using a pen opened about 3 weeks ago? Please correct me ASAP if so.

    PS. TC looks like Ducia's litter mate - really, like twins :).
     
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  72. Elinor & Sibon

    Elinor & Sibon Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    @Elizabeth and Bertie @Kris & Teasel @Tuxedo Mom
    These are exactly the two approaches I've been struggling to decide between. Whether I should be persistent with a certain amount of units for a certain amount of time, or if I should give smaller ones if the numbers are above 180.
    If he's around ~200 during the AM and I give a shot before I leave for work, I'll be terribly worried that he would go into hypo while I'm gone.
    I'm meeting a vet who specializes in Diabetes this Sunday, she's the best in the country. Should I persist with 1 unit until then and see what she says?
    Sorry for taking over this post :\
     
  73. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    I agree with Kris and Mary Ann, I think lowering the dose slightly and splitting it evenly between morning and nighttime is the best option to try at this point. Without more info on the spreadsheet I would be hesitant to recommend lowering the preshot threshold by very much; the little evidence that's there suggests he is dropping down into some nice greens when he gets his shot so lowering the threshold could cause him to drop lower than you want him to go.

    Some cats do get a full 12 hour duration from the fast-acting insulins. Squallie always got very good duration on Vetsulin.

    @Tanya and Ducia I think the first pen you opened is probably fine! :)
     
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  74. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Only shoot what you are comfortable with giving, Elinor; and especially so if you can't be there to monitor....
    .
     
  75. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Another vote for splitting a slightly lower dose consistently between AM/PM. Sliding scales are fine once you get the bouncing under better control but right now I think it would potentially set off more bouncing which isn't going to help figure out what is working and what isn't.

    I also wonder if it might be helpful to try TC on a diet of slightly higher carb food. FF Pate is around 2-3%. Roasted, Flakey or Chunky FF are between 4% & 6% so not much higher but that bit extra carb might help smooth out the drops somewhat. Not all cats do best on the lowest carb foods.
     
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  76. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Hi Elinor,
    I'm chiming in late but agree with the others to lower the dose. Also, you might want to create your own thread so we're not all hijacking T.C.'s and his Mum's thread :)

    T.C.'s Mum,
    I like what Linda suggested to see if those slightly higher low-carb foods help smooth the drops. The idea is to stay under 10% carbs but like Linda said, not all kitties fair well with the lowest carb options. Every Cat is Different (ECID)! :cat:
     
  77. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
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  78. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Hi guys,
    Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to try the slightly higher carb food and see how that works. I'm also seeing the vet next week to talk about switching to Lantus.
    I'm also switching to a human meter for everyday readings (One Touch Ultra 2.) Should I start another spreadsheet using the human meter and link that in my signature? Also, how would I make it obvious that I switched insulin in my spreadsheet once I do?
    Finally, T.C. had a low preshot number, 189, last night. I'm not sure why. He ate and had 0.25 of his insulin that morning. So, I was too scared to inject because I didn't want him to go hypo. Any clue as to why this would happen?
    And again, thank you to everyone that has helped. Y'all have been live-savers and help calm my stress. You're my support system, so thank you. :bighug:
     
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  79. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    You don't need a new spreadsheet for either the meter or a different insulin. All you need to do is insert a row on your spreadsheet, merge the cells and type a note into the row "Switched to One Touch Ultra2 meter" or "Started NEW INSULIN name". That way the changes are obvious to everyone but you still have all your data in one place for reference. Anytime I make changes like this, I make a copy of the spreadsheet as a backup first just to be on the safe side.

    T.C. is getting massive drops from the Novolin (often way over 50% of pre-shot numbers)which is setting off major bouncing. That 189 was likely his system just being a little slower bringing his BG back up. I'd stick with the 0.25u for the moment because you want to try to avoid setting off the bouncing as much as possible and get his cycles to level out. A bit higher carb food will hopefully help too.

    One other thing......are you checking T.C. for ketones? With those high pre-shots, it would be a good idea to keep an eye on this just to be on the safe side. Ketones can be checked using dip sticks available at the pharmacy. Some folks can sneak up on their cats and hold a designated spoon (a $ store spoon is ideal) under their butts to grab a sample. Others use plastic wrap around the edge of the box to grab a small sample. You only need a few drops of urine to test.
     
  80. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    I've used the One Touch Ultra for many years and really like it. You will probably find though that it requires a slightly larger blood sample than the Alphatrak.

    Also, with the OTU, the blood droplet goes on the end/tip of the test strip, and not to the side (as the Alphatrak does, I think...).
    You will probably notice that TC's BG numbers look lower when you use a human meter. That's normal. Human meters usually 'read' lower than the Alphatrak.

    You're doing great. Well done! :bighug:
    .
     
  81. tcmeowmixtc

    tcmeowmixtc Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Hi everyone, just a quick update.
    T.C. had a vet visit Tuesday where they checked for ketones - he was negative. We are switching to Lantus tomorrow morning. He LOVES the turkey chunky FF. Thanks for all your help!
     
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