Food advice for our 8 month old Diabetic Burmese

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Wazza hall, May 6, 2018.

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  1. Wazza hall

    Wazza hall New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2018
    Hey All
    After a bit of Advice on what people are feeding there Diabetic Cats?
    I have another post going with regards to our 8 month old Burmese called Chilli on this forum but could do with some advice on food for him as getting a bit confused with all the different opinions we are reading.
    Just so people know Were are based in Australia not America.
    Obviously its in the vets best interest for you to buy one of there prescription foods and as at this stage we dont know any better we have him on Hills Science md wet food which is a low carb diet and quite rightly so the low carbs is essential.
    He has that with a few pieces of steak and a couple of the md biscuits 3 times a day.
    He currently is having 2 units of lantus at 7am and pm and although his bgl comes down during the middle of the day, first thing in the morning and last thing before his shots his reading is always mid to high 20's and wondered if there is a better option for food that we should try?
    Will be going to a specialist with the little man but just need to wait for a couple of his test results to come back so were prepared when we do.
    Any help would be greatly Appreciated!!!
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
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  2. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Just gave you a link in the other post re some options for food.
    Might be an idea to mention you are from Australia as a lot of the canned foods are different in the US and also some with the same names can have different carb levels. Woolworths and Petbarn both have suitable foods.
    I have used a raw diet for several years now. It is a bit more time consuming than just opening a can but I think the benefits outweigh the time needed to do it. Once you have figured out portion sizes it is a breeze. If you are interested just let me know. I don't grind the bones and put in the food as many people do, but give raw bones to eat (for the calcium)
    What you do need to do is try and stick to the same number of carbs all the time as the insulin dose is based on how far the insulin brings down the BSL (the nadir) ....not the preshot blood sugar level.....and this is influenced by how many carbs you are feeding.
    I'll tag another Ozzie for you who may have some more info.
    @Girlie's mom
     
  3. Wazza hall

    Wazza hall New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2018
    Thanks Bron
    Your an Angel!
    Yes that's the food
    We're on a pretty steep learning curve and just want whats best for our boy.
    Be very interested to hear what your raw diet is as before this happenened chilli was on a raw diet aswell but the vet kind of scared us off of that.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  4. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Will be happy to tell you about what I feed with the raw diet.
    A lot of vets do not like a raw diet. They do not get a lot of training about food at university except by the large food companies that peddle their products including dry food which a lot of us know is very bad for cats.
    I think they think that the cat will not get the proper essential ingredients, but if it is done properly, it is the best diet for cats.
    I will put what I do with raw in detail in a seperate post as I am caught up at the moment with kids.

    I did want to say though, in relation to Chilli's high numbers after being low.......it is possible that he is bouncing after going into normal numbers. Chilli has probably been in high numbers for some time and his body now thinks those high numbers are normal. Then along comes the insulin and the numbers drop. Chilli's liver says OMG I need to be saved....and promptly spills out hormones to counteract the insulin which sends the BSL skyrocketing.
    This is very common especially in newly diagnosed diabetic cats. Their body has to get used to what normal numbers feel like again and until they do, they will continue to bounce. There is nothing you can do except put on your patience pants and wait it out. Some cats settle down quickly and others take ages and some bounce all the way to remission.
    So don't worry about the high numbers. He is responding well to the insulin...his body needs time to get used to those low numbers again.
    Is Chilli food motivated? Does he eat everything as soon as you put it down or does he graze. If he is a bolter, a auto feeder is a good idea. Like this
    https://www.crazysales.com.au/onlin...MIhYW6g43z2gIVHgQqCh2ARgUkEAQYCiABEgIZVPD_BwE

    I used one for wet food for Sheba and it can be set for times when you are not there but the cat needs food.
    Do you feed only at shot time or at +3 and +5 for example. If you feed at +3 you are feeding at the onset of the insulin and then at +5 or 6 you are feeding when the BSL is at its lowest (nadir). It is better for the pancreas to be given several smaller meals during the day and night.
     
  5. Wazza hall

    Wazza hall New Member

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    Apr 30, 2018
    Thanks Bron
    Makes sense about his body being used to the high numbers as i think as you stated they have been high for quite a while.
    Yes Chilli is a bolter and woofs his food down and seems hungry most of the time but he's always been like that so we have never left food down as he would always eat it.
    Understandably though since this diagnosis he has got worse.
    Even caught him the other night trying to eat an oven chip off the side lol.
    Not good for low carb diet!
    During the day he gets his meal at seven and then another around +7 when i get home.
    Been looking at timed feeders as +5/6 is his low point normally so that would be the only way to feed him at those times.
    Look forward to reading about the raw diet as yhats what we would rather give the Boys!
    Thanks for giving up your time to help us out Bron as its all a bit overwhelming to start with.
     
  6. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Hi again (can you tell us your name please so we know what to call you and your partner):)
    What a beautiful cat Chilli is! I have owned Burmese before and they are wonderful cats.

    Here is the information on the raw food diet.
    I follow the frankenprey diet which is the closest to what they would eat in the wild.
    Like this
    http://www.rawfedcats.org/nature.htm.

    Others follow a diet similar to the one advocated by vet Lisa Pierson, like this
    https://catinfo.org/making-cat-food/

    Here is another link
    http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.html

    I used to follow the one like Lisa Pierson's diet when I was feeding Sheba but since I have had Harry I am following the Frankenprey diet and love it. I started feeding Harry the Frankenprey diet when I got him when he was 6 months old. If you start feeding them bone when they are young they are more likely to eat it, although I have to say Sheba loved a bone too but because she had early kidney disease I couldn't give her much bone because of the phosphorus.

    If you follow the Lisa Pierson diet you need to add all the supplements she has listed, to ensure you have a balanced diet. I think that is what freaked out most vets...the thought they are not getting a balanced diet.

    With the Frankenprey diet, because you are feeding the organs etc, and giving egg (for vitamins) and fish (for the omega 3) some of the supplements are not necessary. One that you must give is taurine even though much of the raw diet has quite a bit of taurine in it, especially the chicken hearts. Cooking the meat destroys much of the taurine.

    So what you need to give is:
    *80% muscle meat (such as chicken thighs and legs, kangaroo meat, chicken hearts, chicken giblets, beef heart, beef, lamb, turkey, pork). If you give turkey make sure it is 100% turkey with no additives. I will only buy it on the bone then I know it is OK. Harry doesn't eat the turkey bone but tears the meat off the bone which is fantastic for his teeth.
    Heart is considered muscle meat not organ meat. I also buy grass fed beef mince from WW as it (as well as the kangaroo is high in Omega 3). Minced meat has less taurine in it as once it is minced, a greater surface is exposed to the air, so just keep that in mind and don't feed too much minced meat. Having said that, I feed probably a portion of it every second day because of the omega 3 benefit.

    *10% edible bone (such as chicken necks, chicken wings, chicken carcasses). If your cats won't eat bone then you will have to find a substitute.. this is not negotiable! They need bone for calcium. It might take a while for them to get used to eating bone. Try giving it first thing in the morning when they are hungry. Always supervise them when eating bone. Eating bones is fantastic for their oral health. Harry has beautiful teeth and and no bad breath at all.

    *10% organ meat of which
    5% is liver ( such as chicken or lambs liver). Don't give more than this as too much can be toxic but a small amount is essential.
    5% of other organ meat ( I use lambs kidneys)

    I only buy human grade meat, usually from Wollies and feed it all raw except the liver which I just drop in boiling water to seal it. It can be fed raw though.
    I buy trays of chicken hearts, giblets, and liver from WW.
    I use a small kitchen weighing machine to weigh the food.....it doesn't take long and you soon get used to guessing the correct weight. I stick to the same amount every day as I don't want Harry to get overweight and he loves his food.:rolleyes:
    When I get home I cut it up into 40 gram portions and freeze it on trays, then when frozen I transfer to plastic bags and keep in freezer. With the chicken hearts I lay them on a tray and freeze them as above.
    With the liver and kidney I cut up into small portions ...for the liver I do about 8 grams and the kidney about 10 grams give or take a gram.
    Depending on Chilli's weight you can work out how much you want to feed him a day. How much does he weigh?
    *** however, while he is unregulated he is going to be starving so you can feed extra. The reason he is so hungry is because his body is not absorbing all the nutrients from the food because of his high blood sugars. Once he gets down to more normal numbers you will find he is not as hungry....hopefully! And he is still a kitten so growing so needs more food than an older cat.

    Apart from the above food.
    I also give Harry a raw egg yoke once a week for vitamins. Don't give raw egg white as it stops the absorption if some vitamin Bs. But you can give cooked egg white safely. If he won't eat an egg yoke on its own, try mixing small amounts in the food over the period of a day.
    I also give him canned sardines once a week and he has the cooked skin from the salmon we eat, which he loves. This is for the omega 3.
    It is important you give all that I have listed above to ensure a balanced diet.
    *Important. Put a pinch of taurine on the food each day. Excess is just excreted in the kidney so you can't give too much.
    https://au.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-T...VzxwrCh1rawC9EAQYASABEgKEafD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Some people feed the diet so it balances out over a week.
    I find it easier to give all the portions every day eg
    I give Harry 150 grams a day and I feed him 4 times a day. He weighs 5kgm
    So one day I might give him 40grams kangaroo, 40 grams pork, 40 grams beef and his liver and kidney portion and maybe 3 hearts.
    Another day I will substitute one of the meat portions with a chicken wing or neck. I get the portions out the night before and put into a container for the next day.
    I feed him bone 3 or 4 times a week.
    Then I give a raw egg yoke each Saturday and the sardines every Sunday.
    My daughter also feeds her cat raw but she puts all the food in daily portions when she brings it home from the supermarket. Then she just has to pull out one bag a day. Do what ever works for you.
    Put the taurine on when you feed as it can be destroyed somewhat in the freezer.

    Hope this makes sense.
    Ask any question you like about it. Am very happy to help in any way I can. We were all where you are at the moment and understand the steep learning curve:)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
    Reason for edit: Adding info
  7. Wazza hall

    Wazza hall New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2018
    Thanks Bron
    Really appreciate the information.
    My name is Warren but everyone does actually call me Wazza and my wife is called Ceri which is welsh spelling for kerry.
    Will have a look at the info you sent through.
    Apologies for late response but didn't come up in my alerts that i had a message for some reason.
    Thanks again!!!
     
  8. Wazza hall

    Wazza hall New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2018
    Looking at what you use its very simular to what we gave the boys before the vet scared us off of it other than we never did the egg yolk thing.
    Chilli weights 3.4kg as he's lost a bit of weight since all this started.
    What quantities would you recommend for our boy as he's a growing kitten.
    We will make up bags for each day as it will be too much to deal with on a daily basis.
    Out of interest where do you get taurine from to add as a supplement from and how much do you need on each meal?
    Thank you so much for your help as kind of feel like we'r drowning right now!
     
  9. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Hi Ceri and Wazza,

    How much does your other kitty weigh? Is he a Burmese too? And age.
    Most cats do lose weight when they are diagnosed with diabetes. I remember Sheba was painfully thin but she put it all back on once everything got more under control. Until this happens he is going to want/need more than normal to make up for not being able to absorb it properly.
    I would be inclined to start with 150 grams a day and see how he goes. Does it satisfy him.? Is he starting to put on weight? Is he losing more weight. Then adjust accordingly.
    Every cat is different (ECID). My daughters cat weighs about 4 Kgms and she eats the same amount as Harry and doesn't put on weight. If I give Harry more than 150grams he puts on weight. So it is a bit of trial and error really. But 150 grams is a good place to start.
    It won't have any carbs in it at all really so you need to do the transfer over gradually and keep a close eye on the BSLs.
    You might find he needs less insulin.
    If you are going to do bags for each day, it might be less messy if you bag the bone portions separately and just add it to the days you are giving bone. That will mean some of the bags will have less in them than others and you will need to mark them as such. I am sure you will work out what works best for you. Just keep the portions 80, 10 and 10(5,5.)as much as possible.

    I bought the taurine from iherb, which comes within a week of ordering. Otherwise you should be able to pick it up at health foood shops or maybe chemists. Just make sure it is only taurine with nothing added.
    Add a pinch of taurine to each meal.
    Hearts are full of taurine but don't give more than about 4 chicken heart a day because of the sodium content.
    I also use beef heart instead of chicken hearts sometimes. A good mix of different animals gives a good range of minerals and vitamins.
    When I give the egg yoke and sardines I give them on top of the 150 grams. I don't try and fiddle with the portions...I just give them as an extra.

    If you have trouble getting the cats to eat bone let me know and I will tell you the other options. They have to have a source of calcium.

    It is normal to feel you are drowning at the moment. I promise it gets much easier, it will soon be old hat to you. .and you will end up knowing more about feline diabetes than the vet! Living with it 24/7 teaches us beans ( humans) a lot!

    When you get sorted with the food, you might like to have a look at this thread. It was put together by one of the wonderful members and has pretty much everything you want to know about FD.
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/where-can-i-find-________.127890/

    One other thing. When you have time, can you go to the right top of the page and click on your name. Then go down to
    where it says signature. If you look below my posts you will see what I have written in my signature. If you can fill it out with Chilli's name, date of diagnoses, the fact he had DKA, what insulin and dose he is on, any other issues, his age. Also pop in your two names. And when you get his SS up and running it will pop up there. When people come to help you they look at what is in your signature first.
    Good luck with the raw diet. Let me know how it goes. Can you tell us a bit about your other kitty. We call them civvies if they don't have FD.
    If I can help in any other way please tag me.
    Bron
     
  10. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Hi there!

    I live in Sydney. Here's the info I've put together (after long and arduous and painful research) that works for my 19 year old Burmese:

    I get my cat food delivered from www.petstock.com.au ; https://www.mypetwarehouse.com.au/ ; https://www.petcircle.com.au/ and also https://www.petbarn.com.au/ I buy in bulk when they're having sales. Petstock has sales pretty regularly. Petstock, Pet Warehouse and Pet Circle all carry ZiwiPeak.

    The best source of info for carbs in cat food is Dr Lisa Pierson's chart. Here's her post with good info and a link to the chart: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/dr-pierson-new-food-chart.174147/

    She's in the US, of course, but a lot of the food on the list that we get here is actually imported from the U.S. The Wellness phosphorous numbers have gone up, but I don't believe that the carb numbers have gone up. I know Girlie hasn't had her BG go up when I've given her the Wellness, and she reacts very quickly to carbs.

    Dr Pierson's list is quite long, and it can get confusing trying to figure out which foods we can get here in Australia. I've highlighted the ones that we can get and attached the foods that I give Girlie here to make it easier for you.

    A note re: Fancy Feast: The Fancy Feast grilled foods are Medium Carb (MC); I confused them with other FF on Dr Pierson's list and thought they were LC - big mistake! Oh well. At least you can avoid that.

    Girlie used to eat Whiskas and Ultimates Indulge, but I don't give her that anymore. Now she really loves the Fancy Feast, especially the Savoury Salmon Pate. Her next fave is the ProPlan.

    Does your cat have kidney issues? If so, you want to try to stay under Phosphorous 200 if you can, but that's really, really hard to do. At this point with Girlie, getting the diabetes under control trumps her verging on having kidney disease, and I can always give her phosphate binders if it comes to that.

    It's good to have a range of LC (low carb), MC (medium carb), and HC (high carb) food on hand. If your cat does a deep dive and you need to slow that down, just giving a little MC food can help with that. Bron & Sheba taught me how to do this - and it works!

    Also, if you find that your cat drops quickly on a really low carb food, you can try mixing 1/2 lc and 1/2 mc to end up with a carb under 10 (e.g. 1 tsp Savoury Salmon + 1 tsp Filet of Turkey = LC 7. Some cats drop too quickly on the really, really LC ones and actually have better and steadier numbers with a LC food between 5 - 10).

    These are the Fancy Feast I use for Girlie:
    • Low carb: Classic Savoury Salmon Gourmet (LC 1); Classic Ocean, Whitefish Tuna Gourmet (LC 0); Classic Cod, Sole, Shrimp Gourmet (LC 1)
    • Medium carb: The Classic Grilled Filets: Prime Filet of Beef (MC 12); Prime Filet of Chicken (MC 12); Prime Filet of Salmon (MC 13); Prime Filet of Turkey (MC 13); Grilled Ocean Whitefish & Tuna (MC 13); Grilled Tuna (MC 14) - and see others over 11 and under 15% carbs I've highlighted in the attached.
    • High carb: Use when in danger of a hypo, etc.: see ones over 15% carb on Pierson's list that I've highlighted
    Gravy for hypo incidents: SUPERB to have on hand if you need to get a tsp or more of gravy into your cat: Just go to Petbarn and get the Cats in the Kitchen pouches. They go from 12% up to 18%. Simply cut off a corner and squeeze the gravy out. It's a really easy way to get gravy into your cat when their numbers go too low and you need to bring them up quickly but without filling them up with food.

    The Cats in the kitchen cans are great as well as they're all low phosphorous. Most cats love them; Girlie is picky so not a joy to try to feed. Sigh.

    Other alternatives: Honey (Girlie wouldn't touch the stuff) or Glucose syrup (easy from vet to syringe into Girlie). I have a hypo toolbox so that everything is there at the ready in case Girlie takes a deep dive and I have to take immediate action. I don't have to go searching for the right food in my panic.

    Attached:
    • My Excel SS with tab for MC and LC food that I use to choose which food I'll give Girlie depending on what her numbers are.
    • Pages from Dr Lisa's chart with ones we can get in Oz highlighted in yellow.
    • Note that Wellness have changed their recipe so they're all much higher in phosphorous than they are in Dr Lisa's chart.
    Good luck! Burmese are extraordinary...years and years of happiness await you with yours, I'm sure! :)
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. Wazza hall

    Wazza hall New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2018
    Hey Bron
    Chilli is 3.4kg he's a male and he's a 8 month old Burmese.
    Thanks for the raw diet info will be buy all the stuff this weekend to het things going with the raw diet for our boys.
    Chilli lost half a kilo initially but seems to of stabilised now which is good.
    Will let you know how we go with the raw diet.
    Will fill out the signature section over the weekend.
    Thanks again!
     
  12. Wazza hall

    Wazza hall New Member

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    Apr 30, 2018
    Thanks Darrah
    Much appreciated!
     
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  13. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

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    Jul 3, 2017
    My Girlie is a blue Burmese as well. 8 months old and a diabetic! Is that unusual, I wonder? I know that Burmese are prone to diabetes as a breed, but I thought it usually hit later. I hope that with the right diet you can get it nipped in the bud. Going raw would be great if you could and Bron is the one who can really guide you there.

    I'm looking forward to seeing your signature and your spreadsheet, if you're able to post that.

    All the best of luck to you!
     
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