Food Forum, Anyone?

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Elizabeth and Bertie, Mar 4, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Just wanted to draw folks' attention to a discussion that's going on in Think Tank because I know that not everyone here reads the posts in TT; and this is something that may interest a lot of people.

    Do you want a food forum at FDMB?
    Here's the link to the thread:
    Food Links
    .
     
  2. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Brilliant idea especially for those of us in the UK as our list of recommended food seems to be very out of date.
     
  3. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Yes def a good idea!
     
  4. Lisa and Witn (GA)

    Lisa and Witn (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
  5. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Gets my vote! :)
     
  6. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    If one of you UK folk would start up a Google Sheets listing, label it, and select others in the UK to have permission to add on to it, and those with general link to view it, that'd be a start.
    I've set one up as a draft. See post below.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015
    Critter Mom likes this.
  7. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    I'd be happy to contribute to the sheet once it's set up.
     
  8. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Cat belled.
    Here's the read-only version.
    I'll need specific e-mail addresses to add others to the "may edit" list. Send them to me in a conversation, not a post, so you don't get spammed!
    It is a draft, so if you want other details added, list them, or once added to the editor list, add them yourself.
     
  9. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    I'm happy to do an initial batch of carb calculations. :)
    And am also happy to enter data on the sheet as long as it doesn't require any clever technical stuff...:nailbiting:

    Thanks, BJ. You're a star.
    (Will PM you my details.)

    Eliz
     
  10. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    BJM & Elizabeth,you are BOTH stars,I can still evoke the panic I felt when Bailey was first diagnosed,so much research to do,and not knowing where to begin,these easily accessible links on food for each country,along with data on individual illnesses that can run concurrently alongside FD will be invaluable to us all,especially the newly diagnosed members.I had my doubts about the new format on the forum,but with all this comprehensive info that is being suggested and put into place by dedicated members like yourselves it is turning out to be awesome.well done,I only wish I was more computer savvy to help you out.
     
    Critter Mom and Diana&Tom like this.
  11. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Thanks, BJ, for kicking this off. I'll PM you my email address.

    Could we have a column for as-fed moisture content, please? In addition to making it easier to follow the carb calculations, having an at-a-glance reference to moisture content(s) helps when using secondary monitoring (so that one can calculate the approximate amount of water a cat is getting from its food). Columns for calcium and phosphorus info would be a valuable addition, too.

    I'd also like to see a "Source" column, so that members can see where to buy the foods.

    I'd like to suggest adding a wide column at the very last position in the table for ingredients and additives. People contributing to the list could simply copy and paste ingredient/additive info from the product web pages into the cells. It is invaluable information to have available at a glance for those of us whose cats have specific dietary requirements, food intolerances, and/or allergies.
    .
     
  12. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    What I'm pondering is: What amendments are we able to make on our own, and what can BJ @BJM do that we can't do (given that she is 'smarter than the average bear'...)

    And I'm actually wondering if we can jettison some columns that we don't need in order to make space for some additional ones...?

    And, and , and.... I'm wondering if this format would also suit our Antipodean chums...? 'Two birds, one stone', and all that....
     
    KPassa likes this.
  13. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Based on what I've found valuable in terms of food info, I think all the columns in BJ's draft (bar the duplicate 'Product' column) are the minimum necessary.

    And then some! :D
    .
     
  14. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    An afterthought. I think it's a good approach to actually discuss which columns are the most beneficial to a broad audience before adding more to the spreadsheet. If columns can be added 'willy-nilly' the resulting sheet might become a bit too cumbersome to be useful.
     
    KPassa and Elizabeth and Bertie like this.
  15. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Yes, absolutely agree with all of the above! :)

    I'm also thinking that it would be good if this could be set up a resource that isn't only useful to us (who are currently posting on the forum) but also could be easily updated/amended/adapted by those who join the forum after us, so that the info is always current and relevant to those who need it.
     
    KPassa likes this.
  16. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Absolutely! :)
     
  17. Blamethecats and Hannah

    Blamethecats and Hannah Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    This is a great idea. There is a lot of wonderful food/nutrition info posted on the Message Board, but it's all over the place and sometimes hard to locate when needed. Also, for some of us, it's hard to decipher/understand. What a help a food forum would be... a direct path to the subject. Bring it on!!
     
    Zephyr's Brother and Critter Mom like this.
  18. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Moggers has taken the plunge and is playing with the Google sheet for the UK food list. :D (Thank you, BJ, for setting up access!)

    It is very much work in progress. I've rejigged the column order, and I've put a suggested colour-coding scheme for the kcal from carbs% cells so that it's easier to see at a glance which carb range a food falls into. I'd appreciate it if someone could give me definitive upper and lower range boundaries for the medium carb % range so that I can set conditional formats on the cells (similar to the colour coding in the BG spreadsheets).

    I've entered a sample record in the table (partial) to show two ways of including ingredient info. The obvious one is the column on the far right of the table. I've also used the note function in the product name cell. If you move the mouse pointer onto the product name (Chicken & Turkey Pouch in the sample record), you should see a pop-up box appear to the right of the cell containing the ingredient and additive info for the product. What do people think of recording the ingredient info? If you want to include it, which presentation do you think will work better: pop-up note or separate column?

    What other info would you like to see?
    .
     
    Elizabeth and Bertie likes this.
  19. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Experiment as needed.
    You might duplicate a page (right-click the tab at the bottom and Duplicate, then change the duplicate page name), then edit the copy to see if you like the changes or not. If not, delete the copy. And of course, you can save a copy to your own Drive account, too.
    Be brave and experiment!
     
  20. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Great suggestions, BJ. :)
     
  21. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    :nailbiting:
     
  22. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Aine, that's great work! Wowsy!

    I didn't understand some of what you wrote in your post though because it sounded a bit clever and I haven't had enough coffee for that yet...(only half way through the first cup of the day...:coffee:;))

    But my first thoughts are that the coloured column for carbs is an excellent idea! The most needed info should be the easiest to spot. (And that splash of colours does add a nice touch of interest to an otherwise monochrome design...:D)

    Regarding the carb column: Is that data the number of calories in 100g of food, or the percentage of calories from carbs?
    And, are we actually planning to list some med and high carb foods as well as those with less than 10% cals from carbs? Is this so that folks have options for raising blood glucose...? (And if so, can anyone suggest some foods...?)

    A column for dry matter phosphorous could be good, since a lot of older kitties do have kidney disease. It's a very simple calculation as long as the phos content and moisture content are listed on the label (or obtainable from the manufacturer).

    Are you suggesting we list ingredients of all foods also?

    Back later after Friday morning torture class (Barre Concept....:nailbiting:)

    Eliz
     
  23. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Hi Eliz,

    I'm doing a little bit more on the spreadsheet design. I've decided to go with putting the ingredients into a note attached to the food variety name for now. I'm going to work on this sheet exclusively for now to get the guts of the information into a (hopefully) logical layout ready for discussion. We can always add/delete/reorder the columns afterwards but trying to do that across multiple sheets at this stage would create a lot of unnecessary (and confusing) work: Google sheets is a tad on the clunky side when it comes to editing. I hope that's OK with everyone. If not, please shout! :)

    I'm trying to set up the spreadsheet so that there will be minimal data entry and the spreadsheet will do the rest of the work.

    Eliz, I'm using the following multipliers to calculate the kcal percentages:

    Protein: 3.5 kcal/g
    Fat: 8.5 kcal/g
    Carbs: 3.5 kcal/g

    If you put your mouse pointer onto the relevant column headings, you'll see that I've added notes to show the multipliers for easy reference. If these values are not correct, please let me know.

    I'm setting the low carb range as less than 10% of calories from carbohydrates. Is that correct? Or should it be 6% or less? Also, can somebody please tell me what is the MAXIMUM calories from carbs % that would qualify a food to be placed in the 'medium carb' range. I need this info for the colour coding.

    Once the spreadsheet design's finalised, I think it would be very helpful to include a User Guide on a separate tab to help people to understand/navigate/add to the sheet. Thoughts?

    All feedback and comments are very, very welcome. :)
    .
     
  24. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Emphasis mine

    Hi Aine,

    Yes, would be super-duper to get some kind of consensus from current UK folks on 'what info is most useful?'; and to try to balance those wishes with 'ease of ongoing maintenance'.
    If our document is too complicated it won't be easy to keep up to date, and it's important that it is kept up to date.

    For me (given that this is a diabetic cat forum) the most important thing is the name of the food and the percentage of calories from carbohydrates; pure and simple.

    The next most useful thing would be to know where I can buy that food.
    Then, it may also be that Fluffy also has kidney disease (very common), so it would be good to know the phosphorous content if possible (and it isn't always possible...).
    Then, I might also be interested in specific comments about that food such as; 'contains soya', 'contains carrageenan', 'very low fat', etc in case Fluffy has food intolerances or specific dietary requirements.

    I would not assume that the food document contains everything I might want to know about a particular food
    , but that's OK; I can look up any further info online. What I really want to know from this document is what isn't easy to find out online or by looking at a food label.

    Documents take time to maintain. I think we need make sure it is simple and quick to maintain, not only for us, but also for those who join this forum further down the line.

    Also, Juliet (Dr Schrodinger) @Dr Schrodinger has done a heck of a lot of work on her own UK food document (and has listed, I think, 143 UK foods). She's not been on the forum for a number of months but I think she should be contacted. (Her document has been incredibly useful for a lot of people.)

    Let's try to get some other UK points of view also; @LynRich , @KleineMue , @phlika29 , @BaileyUK , @anna and bailey.uk england

    Eliz
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  25. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Ooops! ~ Sorry Aine, I didn't see your post before I posted mine!
     
  26. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Re ingredients:

    When it comes to trying to find suitable foods for cats with pancreatitis or digestive system / underlying health issues (e.g. allergies/intolerances, IBD, CKD) where the actual make-up of the diet is just as important as dietary carbs, having ingredient information readily available alongside carb information is invaluable. I really believe that adding the ingredient information will help many people. We all know how even the simplest of things can be overwhelming to contend with when our little ones aren't well and we are so beset with worry. I certainly found trying to research foods on top of trying to learn about diabetes and pancreatitis made things much more of a struggle. If we can create a food reference library that's an information 'one stop shop', I think it could alleviate a lot of stress for caregivers of newly-diagnosed cats, and be an incredibly useful resource on an ongoing basis.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
    Tiger(GA) and Ruth likes this.
  27. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Snap! Seems cross-posting is the order of the day, Eliz.
     
  28. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    I recognise that this is primarily a forum for diabetic cats, but there are a significant number of cats with comorbid conditions - notably pancreatitis - and I really believe there is merit in bringing this information together in one place. My vision of the amount of maintenance required would be to:

    1. Enter the food brand/name/source.

    2. If available, copy the ingredient & additive list from a product website and paste it into a note against the food variety (with instructions in the User Guide - it's a very easy thing to do).

    3. Enter the as-fed typical analysis percentages.

    4. If available, enter the calcium and phosphate values.

    The spreadsheet should then calculate everything else (with the option to add a remark if desired).

    I agree that Juliet's spreadsheet is fantastic for carb info, etc., but I for one would like to see a little more nutritional information in a central spreadsheet. Maybe others disagree. Maybe Juliet's spreadsheet might be the better one to use as a base. Or maybe we should just stick with it altogether? If the latter, is Juliet the only person that maintains it?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
    Tiger(GA) and Ruth likes this.
  29. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Yes, but that wasn't the intention.
    Juliet asked for help. But I couldn't help at that time (when the document was set up) because I was weighed down with family problems. So she had to cope with it on her own; and it sort of 'stuck' that way. (Because I knew she had coped, I let it ride. 'Mea culpa'...:oops: )

    Very often there are only a handful of Brits on the forum at any given time, and the degree to which people want to be (or are able to be) actively involved varies a lot.

    I'm all for the UK food document containing more info as long it can be maintained easily.
    If we could set up a document that was useful and could be easily updated then that could be a fine legacy to leave for those who come here after us.

    Eliz
     
  30. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    What are your views on the suggestion I made above about what might need to be manually entered into the sheet, Eliz?

    As a bit of background, the proposal is based on quite a lot of trial and error on my part to find a really easy way to record the most pertinent food info without the additional hassle of having to go off to websites to find out more information. Because of my cognitive difficulties, I actually need to make all aspects of my life extremely simple to manage/maintain. The suggestions I'm making give maximum info return for minimum input effort (takes only a couple of minutes to add details for a new food to the list). Maybe other people might not find it that way, hence my request for feedback.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  31. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Okey dokey, Aine,
    These are just my own views (in blue); hopefully others which chime in soon.

    1. Enter the food brand/name/source.
    Yep, very important.

    Edited to add:
    'Percentage of calories from carbs' also vital.


    2. If available, copy the ingredient & additive list from a product website and paste it into a note against the food variety (with instructions in the User Guide - it's a very easy thing to do).
    Can see that this is potentially useful. But even if this is included I still think it would need specific comments on things that may not seem relevant from just a cursory reading of the ingredients list. One example is that some foods appear low carb but contain 'vegetable protein extract' which can cause some cats' blood glucose to skyrocket.

    3. Enter the as-fed typical analysis percentages.
    Not sure of the usefulness of this. (Although I do understand that you'd find it helpful to see the moisture content?)

    4. If available, enter the calcium and phosphate values.
    Yep, very important for some folks.
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  32. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    These multipliers will enable us to calculate the total calories in 100g of food, and to calculate the amount of calories in that 100g of food that come from carbs etc; but that isn't necessarily the same thing as the percentage of calories from carbs. And when comparing foods that's what we need to be showing. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  33. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Hi Eliz,

    Thanks for the feedback. Cognitive problems are making it difficult to reply right now. (Been trying for hours but I can't get my thoughts into a coherent form. Will try again over the weekend.)

    BTW, the carb kcal % value is already in the sheet: it's the colour-coded value.
    .
     
  34. KPassa

    KPassa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    I just wanted to interject and say that this thread is a brilliant cooperative effort. :bighug:

    And "antipodean chums?" Bwahahahaha! :smuggrin:
     
    Elizabeth and Bertie likes this.
  35. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    This is where I think we are at cross purposes, Eliz. The format that I've proposed only needs you to enter the as-fed analysis values into the sheet (hence the need to have the columns). The spreadsheet itself will do all the calculations. That way anyone with editing privileges can just enter product name, where to buy, and as-fed analysis values from the food label/product web page. (Ingredient info is an optional extra, but very, very valuable.) All the "technical stuff" will be built into the spreadsheet. They won't need to worry about how to calculate the calories from carbs, etc., because it will be done automatically (a bit like the way the World BG template automatically calculates the US BG values using the mmol values that we enter). It doesn't get any easier to expand/maintain than that.

    With regard to the ingredient info, trying to include comments about all the potential irritants in foods is, in my considered opinion, way beyond the scope of this food list. For example, every common protein is a potential irritant (to cats with allergies, for example). Trying to add comments about all of the potentially problematic ingredients could result in a very cluttered 'Remarks' section (and a very long spreadsheet). For example, to ensure that caregivers with cats who have chicken allergies are adequately alerted to irritants, it require a note to be included against every food that contains chicken. I think that the onus is on the caregiver to use home monitoring, etc., to identify which foods cause problems for their cat. That said, having a 'one stop shop' where caregivers can view ingredient lists side-by-side with the carb range of a food, it would save many people an awful lot of time and confusion when selecting foods for their cats by sparing them the time and aggravation of having to go schlepping all around the internet to visit the website pages with the ingredient info. As a cat with food issues, I can assure you that anything which cuts down the time required for food research is a godsend. That there is no commentary on the 'iffiness' of various ingredients in each food does not invalidate the benefit of having the ingredient information 'as is' readily and easily accessible for reference. If there are a few 'outstanding' characteristics of a food, (e.g. 'contains carrageenan', 'high fat', 'grain-free', 'non-GMO' etc.) I think highlighting such distinguishing characteristics in the 'Remarks' column could work well.

    When it comes to educating members and sharing information about food irritants, it might be a better idea to maybe have some sort of primer on common 'iffy' ingredients (e.g. soy, carrageenan) in a separate thread in the proposed food forum and maybe some advice for newcomers on how to run food trials to establish which foods may cause their cats' blood glucose to spike. Such an approach would also save on a lot of potential repetition.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  36. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Hi Aine,

    You're quite right. I hadn't realised that some of those columns are there because the sheet is actually doing the calculation. (I just saw a row of numbers, and I've not had time to play with the sheet yet, so haven't even begun to work out what it can do.) You are way ahead of me.

    Are these multipliers the full extent of the current calculation?
    Protein: 3.5 kcal/g
    Fat: 8.5 kcal/g
    Carbs: 3.5 kcal/g

    Or is the sheet also doing the last part of calculation that works out the percentage of calories from carbs. If it's not doing the latter then you will need another column for that.

    It was my mistake to list carrageenan as a candidate for the comments sections, as it's presence should be evident from the ingredients list.
    I'm proposing that the comments section be used for potential 'really need to know' stuff that isn't obvious from the ingredients list.
    For example, soya is often not listed in the ingredients. And if a known food has a track record of raising cats' blood glucose levels despite it being very low carb, it would be prudent to note that in the comments section also.

    Eliz
     
  37. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    It would be really helpful to hear views from other UK folks also, so don't be shy, and please DO get involved in the discussion.
    We need that the UK food list works for everyone who makes use of it. :)
     
  38. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    Hi everyone

    Okay I haven't had time to go over this thread in a lot of detail but if I want to look at a new food this is the information I ideally want to find

    Name/brand
    % of calories from carbs, fat and protein
    Where i can buy it
    Size of can
    Calories per can
    Phosphate levels,etc
    Any ingredients of potential concern
    Any extra bonuses ie single source protein

    I understand that you want need the other info to make the calculations but in all honesty if that could somehow sit behind the headline info that would make it clearer, ie there is a more detailed page/list that you can click on to bring it up.

    I am more than happy to try to help keep it up to date as long as there is no maths involved.:)
     
  39. LynRich

    LynRich Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2014
    This is a very good idea . Squiggles so far is eating Natures Menu Chicken & Natures Menu Fish, plus Lily's Kitchen Chicken/ Fish / Turkey. I'll try & add what's in the food.
    Don't all shout at me, but she does have a few Hills M/D diabetic & weight loss biscuits !

    I agree about getting the balance right between info & ease of maintainance , & knowing the percentage of calories from carbohydrates .
     
    Elizabeth and Bertie likes this.
  40. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    I think Philkas list of recommendations is excellent,very comprehensive,the only input I can add is it would be handy to have suggestions of (let's say hypo situations) of what higher carb foods could be kept in to steer up the bg levels.Also a list of treats would be handy.
    I also think we should keep the maintenance side of this as simple as possible,so future members whatever their level of computer skills will be able to keep this invaluable source of info up to date.
    Aine & Elizabeth,you are doing a wonderful job, many many thanks. X
     
    KPassa and Elizabeth and Bertie like this.
  41. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Emphasis mine.

    I'm wondering, after seeing Sarah's post @phlika29 whether it would be helpful to have some general info that is quick and easy to access, and some more detailed info (including calculations etc) separately.

    On the second page of the sheet, 'draft B', I've experimented with putting most of Sarah's column suggestions together.
    I've not included the calories per can, but have included calories per 100g and the size of the can/pouch.
    And I've not included %calories from fat and protein but could do that (or that info could be with the 'more detailed info' elsewhere on the same sheet, or on a separate sheet?
    Is this kind of thing likely to be useful?

    Once we do find a working model that seems promising, it would be good if all/most current UK members could have a go at entering data. That will give us a better idea of how to balance the amount of information on the sheet with the ease of maintaining/updating it: The 'proof of the pudding is in the eating'...

    If anyone wants access to the 'live' sheet then do let BJ have your email address.

    Eliz
     
    KPassa likes this.
  42. Marciegee

    Marciegee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Just wanted to say, a food forum would be extremely helpful! I've done some digging for available food in Southern California, but knowing where to get specific brands would be awesome.
     
  43. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oh, forgot to say...

    If, in the meantime, anyone would like my Excel spreadsheet carb calculator just let me have your email address and I'll send it to you.
    It does what the Scheyderweb calculator does except it also goes a stage further and calculates the percentage of calories.
    It has my cat food calculations in it but you can just write over the top of those. :rolleyes:
    You just enter the analysis %'s for protein, fat etc in the blue box, and, as you go down the column adding the %'s the sheet does the calculations for you. No maths involved! :)

    Eliz
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
    Marciegee likes this.
  44. Marciegee

    Marciegee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    I would love it! May I DM you???
     
  45. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Yes, of course! :)
     
  46. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    I've been following this thread... sort of... and am just full of admiration for those of you who have the technical know-how to do this. It really is the most brilliant idea and will be a wonderful legacy for the current group of UKers (and others?) to hand down to those still to come.

    I wish I could offer to make some contribution but I honestly am the world's worst at this kind of thing (honest - not just being lazy). For that reason I do support Elizabeth's suggestion for some quick, easy to access, general information in one section as well as a more detailed breakdown elsewhere. I could also if you like offer to be a 'lowest common denominator' guinea pig, as it were, and road-test a document to see if it is helpful for people like me who find anything to do with numbers and data extremely difficult.

    Sorry I can't offer much more input but I heartily salute all of you who are doing this.

    Diana
     
  47. Erimess & Sammy (GA)

    Erimess & Sammy (GA) Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Having a hard time not jumping into this with some concerns.

    First, how are you deciding who is going to get access to this to enter information? The right information for doing these calculations (regardless if the spreadsheet is doing them) can sometimes be hard to come by and a lot of people don't understand what that information is - and sometimes don't even realize it's not the correct information. Every company is different and may present it in different ways. I'm sorry, but from my experience, having someone just go down the page entering numbers and letting the spreadsheet do the rest is an over-simplication -- I've seen far too many people post information, thinking they're doing the right thing, and it's not.

    I'm not trying to be discouraging - just saying to be careful if people are going to be counting on this information. In fact, some companies are loathe to even give out this information because they're scared someone will post it online, mess it up, and then people will be upset that the information is not correct. I have such a spreadsheet and there's not many people I'd trust to be entering anything into it. (Well, maybe ingredients or where it can bought and such, but not numbers.)

    As to CRF cats, there's far more to it than just worrying about phosphorus levels - I ran a CRF group for a few years and people want to know protein, phosphorus, calcium, even sodium, magnesium, etc. (In fact, only worrying about phosphorus is an over-simplification of treating a CRF cat.) That said, if you get the information from the company in the correct way, it's not really that much harder to add these numbers. i.e. the equations for figuring all these out as a percent of dry matter is exactly the same, so it doesn't really matter how many of them you add. (Nearly everyone on the internet besides this site wants numbers as a percent of dry matter. Given people here are used to having carbs, protein and fat as a percent of calories, that's perfectly fine, but you need the other numbers as a % of DM.)

    Another suggestion - I know it's not final - put the information people want to see to the left and leave the raw data off to the right. I'd just be leary leaving the raw data as the first thing you see - people could confuse that. If someone is truly looking for just carbs as a % of calories (and they know it's the colored section) that might be OK. But you also have a percent of carbs that's actually a percent of weight. Will people get that? A lot of people assume if it says "as fed," that's what they want. (It's not labeled as % of weight, and even if it was, a lot of people wouldn't get it, especially math-phobes.)

    I'm also a bit leary of putting those labels on the carb levels. Someone is going to take that as advice and that is not a good idea, especially as a catch-all for any cat in any situation. Are you really saying any food above 16% carbs is appropriate in any emergency situation??

    Again, my point is not to be discouraging. I'm just offering some stuff you need to think about. I've spent a lot of time messing with food charts, and talking to manufacturers (who can be a real PITA), and watching other people post numbers that aren't the right ones, etc. Seriously, just be careful if you want this to be useful.

    I like the idea of a food forum. I really came here entirely for something else, but this caught my attention.
     
    KPassa likes this.
  48. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    I've done a bit more on provisional design - see the tab labelled Draft A2.

    I've also added comments to Draft A2 and Eliz's Draft B version. If you click on the black square at the beginning of the tab names, the comments will show up. Just move the mouse pointer to the cells with the comments and the text will appear in a pop-up. (I don't know whether or not they will appear for people who currently only have read-only access to the spreadsheet at the moment. I'd be grateful if someone could let me know.

    I''ve been experimenting with using web links to the ingredient information but Google Sheets is very clunky with how they work. Can someone with read-only access try clicking on the links and letting me know whether they see an option to "Change/Remove Link" please?

    @Elizabeth and Bertie -

    Eliz, did you use dummy data in the kcal from carbs % column in your Draft B sheet? If not, then one of us is calculating the carbs incorrectly. Have a look at our different values for Nature's Menu Chicken & Turkey and also Ropocat Sensitive Venison to see what I mean.

    Sometimes the way that nutrition data is presented on product web pages can be ambiguous and if the wrong information is included in the calculations it can throw them out badly (e.g. Crude Ash % and Ca/P percentages in Zooplus nutritional analysis tables. My understanding is that the calcium and phosphorus compounds are part of what makes up 'Crude Ash' (inorganic matter). If my understanding is incorrect, can someone please advise on how these values should be handled in carbohydrate calculations. It's an issue that needs discussion and a standard approach agreed (and ideally included in a sheet User Guide).

    Sheet Ownership - Backup and Housekeeping

    Someone needs to 'own' this list. The more people that have editor access, the greater the chance of the sheet getting mucked up (especially as Google Sheets saves changes straight away and - to the best of my limited knowledge - doesn't have a major 'rollback' to last good version feature). Regular backups should be maintained. (Easy job - use the "Make a Copy" function). I have serious misgivings about allowing global editing access to all members. I don't think it's a good idea. One advantage of limiting the number of editors is that it would be possible to hide the "as fed" percentage information most of the time, with editors "unhiding" the columns upon which the calculations are besed once the new foods have been added.

    Additions to the list are likely to be random and that will eventually make untidy at best, and harder to use at worst. I recommend that the list is re-sorted into brand/food variety order periodically (maybe once a week when it's being built, and then maybe monthly / ad hoc thereafter? )

    Thoughts?


    Edited to add:

    @Erimess & Sammy (GA) - I share all of your concerns and your thinking about what data should be presented. In particular, I agree that there is a lot of room for confusion because of the inconsistencies in the way that different manufacturers and food suppliers present nutrition data (ref. comments on crude ash, calcium and phosphorus above). This is very much not a case of just plugging in numbers and away we go. The base data needs to be understood by editors so that correct information is input for the calculations in the first instance. Any columns that are only needed for data entry can be hidden after adding/amending product details, as can formulae for interim calculations(e.g. as fed carb %). I left the latter visible to show my working.



    More to follow...
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  49. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Hi Erimess,

    What we are hoping to do, in a nutshell, is to produce a document that isn't 'static' and can be updated over time. It's very frustrating to come across information that is clearly out of date, and to have no way of getting it updated easily.

    As to 'who' updates it, that will always be limited to the pool of people on FDMB at any given time. That changes a lot. Some folks are only brief visitors here; some stay for months or years.
    Hopefully, the people who volunteer to update the document will have some kind of real interest in it and/or aptitude for it. If there is nobody at any given time who wants to update it then it won't get updated...:rolleyes:

    Yes indeed. It can be hard to get the correct information, and more so in some in some parts of the world than others.

    In Europe we're very lucky. Pet food labelling here is presented in the same formula ('typical analysis' of protein, fat, etc). And the newer pet food companies give detailed ingredients lists. (Although - as everywhere else in the world - very few specify phosphorous and calcium content etc; though some will give this information if it's asked for.)

    But even if we do have the correct information there is still the potential to enter it into the spreadsheet incorrectly. None of us is perfect; we can only do the best we can.

    We're not trying to be a site for CRF kitties. We are, first and foremost, a feline diabetes site. However, quite a few cats here do have CRF, and some of us with older kitties (who don't have CRF) try to limit their phosphorous intake. I think there is a general consensus here that knowing the phosphorous content of foods is helpful (if indeed that information is even available). But nobody is suggesting that this is all there is to managing CRF. (And yes, the phosphorous percentage needs to be a dry matter calculation. Fortunately that's a simple one to do, even without a spreadsheet!)

    Yes, I absolutely agree with you! I wonder whether those labels might lead someone to falsely assume that feeding those foods would be sufficient to keep their kitty safe. It would be different if someone was also posting on the forum and getting 'real time' support for a cat in low BG numbers. But if this was the only information people had then I think it's open to misinterpretation.

    Eliz
     
  50. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Yes, Aine, I noticed that late last night.
    It's probably my error. I'll check my data and that my spreadsheet is functioning OK. :)

    Edited to add: Spreadsheet is working fine, so either I put in the wrong data or looked at the wrong calculation (I had 3 pages of them open on the screen at the same time yesterday...:rolleyes:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  51. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    I agree. Editors need to understand the data on nutrition sites in order to enter the correct values upon which to base calculations (myself included). I also think that it would be a good idea for some sort of peer review/accuracy checking (numbers) to be part of maintaining the list. (We all get tired and then out come the howlers!) Indeed, I don't think a spreadsheet like this should even be released to editors until all calculation formulae are thoroughly checked to be correct, and I think that editorial access should only be granted to people who can correctly interpret manufacturer analyses (with a cast iron "If in doubt, leave it out" rule. Better no information than wrong information. I don't know how 'typo' inaccuracies might be caught. There really should be some proofing process in place. If this goes ahead, it would be wise to have a disclaimer (the list is for convenience but double-check manufacturer/label data and consult your vet). Even if the data at time of inclusion is 100% accurate, recipes change.

    The little I've gleaned about CRF is that protein, calcium and phosphorus percentages are all important, but I find the way calcium and phosphorus information is presented on websites can be confusing much of the time. That section of the proposed list needs input: I don't have the knowledge.

    My preference would be to have data entry on a separate tab altogether and have Google Sheets generate the "reader-friendly" version, similar to the way that the World mmol/L BG spreadsheet automatically presents the information in the mg/dL units familiar to US forum members in a sheet on a separate tab. The main bugbear with this approach is that editors would need to be a little more spreadsheet-savvy to do routine sorting of the list and making sure that they don't knock the formulae out of sync (something that makes me wriggle - a mistake there could turn the sheet to nonsense.).

    I agree that guidelines - if included at all - should be worded with extreme care. Bearing in mind that the spreadsheet is very much a mock-up, I just threw that out as an idea which may or may not be useful. As it is, I've asked on this thread about what ranges FDMB uses to categorise foods as low, medium or high carb. I'm still waiting for an answer to that question. (As a precaution, I've just edited the spreadsheet headers to remove the 'demo' values and text so that if anyone stumbles across this thread there won't be any content in the mock-up that a casual reader might actually take away and use. Grateful for the heads-up!)

    ETA:

    I've just put "Discussion Draft" banner headings on all the sheets in the file, plus a caveat to browsers that the data's not valid.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  52. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Ha! No, it transpires that my own spreadsheet wasn't "working fine" after all. Some of my calculation boxes have become corrupted somehow (maybe when switching over to new computer...) :banghead:

    But the calculation to get percentage of calories starts with this:
    And then you divide the calories per 100g for protein, fat and carbs by the total calories per 100g, and then multiply by 100. That will give the percentage of calories.

    If the food has close to 100 calories per 100g of food then the numbers will be the same (ie, if there are 7 calories in 100g of food then the percentage of calories from carbs is 7%)
    However, if the calories per 100g is significantly higher/lower than 100 then the last calculation can be very important.
     
  53. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    I don't think there is a simple answer to that question.

    The general guidance here is that for diabetic cats the percentage of calories from carbs should be less than 10%. And these foods are considered, broadly speaking, to be 'low carb' and are the ones that usually appear on our food lists.
    But a lot will depend on how carb sensitive the cat is. Some folks may find, for example, that anything above 8% is too high for their cat on a day to day basis (and a food that has 9 - 10% calories from carbs may be a 'medium carb' food for their cat.). And some cats that have gone into remission here have only remained in remission because of foods that have lower carb content than this.

    I've seen some people say here that foods of around 10 - 12% or 12 -15% cals from carbs are their 'medium carb' range.

    Regarding high carb foods: When cats are in low numbers that need to be raised I've often seen US folks advise feeding the gravy from specific foods (there's one in particular that is often recommended, but I can't remember the name of it.) I don't know what the UK/EU or Oz/NZ equivalents of those foods would be. But maybe someone else here does...?
    And every situation in low numbers is different; maybe low carb will suffice, maybe slightly higher carb is needed, maybe glucose/karo is needed, or maybe even dry food.

    Perhaps it would be worth your posting your question on the main health forum so that more people will see it?

    Eliz
     
    KPassa likes this.
  54. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Eliz,

    Thank you for the explanation but I know how to work out the calorie percentages. :)

    I only included the multiplier information for clarification. Sometimes one sees recommendations to multiply protein value by 4, fat by 9, and carbs by 4. When I listed the multipliers I used to set up the formulae in the spreadsheet I was seeking to confirm to the group that I was using the FDMB-recommended multipliers and to seek confirmation that the multipliers were the right ones. I'm sorry it has caused so much confusion, but I felt it was a necessary part of the design process to confirm the multipliers to show my working.
     
  55. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Given that there does not appear to be a board concensus on what carb kilocalorie percentages would qualify a food as being medium or high carb, then I think that the colour coding should be either:

    1. Set to highlight foods under 10% in, say, green, and all other values would be left with a white background. Maybe add some sort of comment to indicate that the general FDMB recommendation is to give foods with less than 10% calories from carbs but that individual cats respond differently to different carb loads.

    2. Abandoned altogether.
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  56. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    For companion animals, the calories are 3.5 for protein and carbohydrate and 8.5 for fats. See the Merck Veterinary Manual.

    They are different for humans.
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  57. Blamethecats and Hannah

    Blamethecats and Hannah Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Yes, please make data available that is easy to decipher for those of us who aren't very good with numbers and have trouble understanding info that is just way too technical. More isn't always better for some of us. I often access way-too-detailed info and just give up trying to figure it out, thus leaving me with no benefit. That's why @Diana&Tom is correct about a section for just general, easy to understand info. Many of us simply can't handle anything too detailed and gather nothing from it.

    Kudos to those of you who have the ability to compose and easily understand "greater things". I think it's wonderful and I don't know what the rest of us would do without you. THANK YOU SO MUCH!! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  58. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Hi BJ,

    Thanks for confirming that I used the correct multipliers. I feel better having the input reviewed and double-checked to make sure I haven't introduced any errors. :)
     
  59. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Hello all,I really wish I could help you,but like Diana I too am not technically minded.I am full of admiration for the time and effort you are putting in to what will an invaluable link, but for what it's worth I think you are making it unnecessarily technical and complicated,keep the data simple,let's get it up and running,more detailed info can be added on at a later date.Hope I haven't upset anyone these are only my thoughts!!
     
  60. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    I agree with bailey, keep it as simple as possible. I do hope no one minds these comments. If I am honest it would say that at the moment there is alot of detailed info on there already. Too much maybe.

    The dry matter values and the nutrition analysis on the label just seem confusing. If they are going to stay on the front page then they might best be placed at the end of the line.

    Really people want to see the headline data first. Ie my cat needs a low carb food and people are telling me it has to be below 10%. So that is my main focus and to me should be first in line.
     
  61. anna and bailey.uk england

    anna and bailey.uk england Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    im glad you guys have brought this up.its all getting so confusing! you don't want too much to take in all at once. its hard enough at the start when youre trying to get to grips with dosing, testing, etc so to then have to try and understand all of this its all abit overwhelming!it just needs to be simple.i hope you guys dont mind me saying :-/ maybe its just me being thick and not very good when it comes to crazy technical stuff on computers but i wouldnt have a clue where to start.maybe links on there rather than it all being in one place! I hope I haven't or don't upet anyone by saying this.its good that people have taken, and are taking the time to do this. we all appreciate it.xxx
     
  62. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Okey dokey, folkies,

    So how about we start from what most people actually want to see?

    At it's simplest this could just be a list of foods and the percentage of calories from carbs.
    There's no doubt that having a basic list like this would certainly be helpful. And it's not difficult to do, and shouldn't be too complicated to maintain.
    Is that enough? If 'yes', then super-duper (Crikey, that was easy!)

    If this isn't enough info for folks then more info can be added. As to 'what' should be added, that is for you to decide. This is a resource for you: So it's for you to decide what information goes into the document. :cat:

    Eliz

    .
     
  63. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Isn't the ideal what was mooted a good few posts ago, ie a 'simple' front page supplying the basics, and then a further page/'layer' (or layers) of additional info for those who need more detailed info? The first page could contain links to specific extra info, perhaps. It would be a shame to waste all the expertise of people here offering their time to do a thorough job - most people may initially just look for the basics, but if a more comprehensive document benefits just one FDMBer then it's worthwhile.
     
  64. anna and bailey.uk england

    anna and bailey.uk england Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    that sounds like a much better idea! here here to that!!!
     
  65. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    With regret, I'm afraid I'm going to have to withdraw from this exercise. This sort of work used to be my professional bread and butter but, behind the scenes, my cognitive impairments have made it a real struggle to contribute thus far; and trying to present cogent arguments in support of my suggestions on how maintenance and presentation of the food information could be streamlined are just proving too much for me. I'm not great health-wise at the best of times and I've learned from repeated experience that trying to push myself beyond my limitations only makes me much worse. It's a shortcoming on my part that I cannot manage to explain my reasoning behind how the "mechanics" might be designed to assist contributors when adding information to the list while simultaneously offering a 'clean' display of information for list users. (Please see the new tab "UK Food List - Draft A3" to see a possible end-user list layout that would have been feasible with the system I was proposing.)

    I'm sorry if the visibility of the design process has been off-putting to members reading this thread. So much of what appears on the face of it to be simple in our lives ends up that way because of a lot of 'backroom' stuff that other people do for us and therefore we never see. Unfortunately in a collaborative design discussion it's not possible to screen that off from the people who only need to see the 'end product'. I apologise for any confusion or worry this may have caused members. As I mentioned in a previous post, all of the 'technical stuff' currently visible in the draft spreadsheets could be placed 'behind the scenes' (for contributor use only, and ideally on a separate tab in the sheet) but that takes proper design and planning in the early stages in order to end up with the 'simple', accurate list that people want to view once the food list goes live.

    I share the same reservations as @Erimess & Sammy (GA) about where this exercise could come unstuck. I don't share the vision of any random 'current pool' of members being able to contribute to the creation and maintenance of a reliable list (and a public list needs to be reliable). It may be a very attractive idea in theory, but in practice I think it's problematic. As I said in an earlier post, I agree wholeheartedly with Erimess that contributors really do need to understand the base nutrition data they'll be working with, even if it's only to calculate and include information on the carb rating of the foods. I'm also concerned that attempts to oversimplify the spreadsheet may result in the creation of a central reference resource which does not contain the base nutrition data used and which therefore would have the potential to become very error-ridden (particularly if calculations end up being done outside the list spreadsheet file) since it would not provide the opportunity for adequate peer review of input data - for accuracy in the first instance, and for auditing to ensure currency of information going forward (the main impetus behind this exercise as I understand it).

    I think that it would be a missed opportunity to exclude the dry matter information. It could be such a great help to members whose cats have multiple health issues (e.g. showing fat content may be very helpful to caregivers of cats with pancreatitis). The additional nutrition information could be generated without any extra work on the part of contributors (provided the calculations are done within the Google document). With some careful thought given to providing informative column headings, it should be feasible to present the additional nutrition information without causing confusion or inconvenience to caregivers whose only interests are the carb ratings of foods and where to buy them.

    For the above reasons, as they say in Dragon's Den, I'm out. I wish everyone working on the list the very best with the project. I hope that some of my input helped. BTW, I haven't got my 'nose out of joint' about any of the comments posted on the thread. On the contrary, the feedback helped to reinforce the misgivings I was already having and I found it helpful in making the decision to end my participation in this exercise. I'm just really uncomfortable with the way this project seems to be heading now, and trying to contribute really has taken a toll on my health. I hope you all understand.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
  66. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Hi Aine,

    I'm very sorry that your health problems are such that you feel unable to continue with the project.
    I do completely understand.
    In fact, yesterday morning I decided that I would be withdrawing from the project myself, for similar reasons.
    However, in the circumstances I had best remain and 'muddle through'; at least until someone else steps forward who is willing to take this on.

    All good wishes to you,

    Eliz
     
  67. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    The link to the spreadsheet can be made so that only those working on it can see it and no one else. If you need/want to do that, let me know.
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  68. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    I actually think we are all saying the same thing, its just none of us can explain ourselves very well:). Theses sort of threads do inevitably cause mass confusion.

    For those who wish to continue it might be better to do it off the public forum.

    In the end everyone is going to be happy with whatever is decided upon. No one was suggesting that the in depth data should not be there but that maybe it just wasnt most people primary concern and so needn't be as prominent. It would be a shame if this idea wouldn't go forward due to issues that I believe can be overcome.
     
  69. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Hi Elizabeth,how very commendable of you,I just wish I had the knowledge to muck in and help you out,but as I have said before I am brain dead regarding computers.At the end of the day we are not trying to put a professional web site together! our main aim is a simple link that can be easy maintenance for future members to keep updated.The US recommendations on suitable foods for FD's seems to fit the bill,and is very straightforward,is it not not possible for us to move forward on their lines? I hope this is not proving too much for you,let's hope someone can offer to jump onboard and help you out.A big thanks from me Eliz as I know how you always put the welfare of the kitties first.
    Diane. X. (Bailey says thankyou too )
     
  70. anna and bailey.uk england

    anna and bailey.uk england Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    critter mom if youre in such bad health you really should just look after yourself and let other people deal with these situations.xxxx its not worth the risk of making yourself ill! :-( why would you put yourself in that situation! your need is you and your kitty. as is all of us here! its a tough job when youre kitty is diagnosed . I got ill just dealing with it all but if you got complications as well its best not to take on too much <3 elizabeth and bertie thanku for taking this on.its a tough job but much needed! xx
     
  71. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Thank you, Anna, for your kind and thoughtful post. In answer to your question about why I wanted to participate in this process, it's because I wanted to do something to pay forward for all the help I have received here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
  72. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Thanks BJ @BJM , that could be helpful in the short term.
    And especially so since the only person that will be working on it at the moment is me. :nailbiting:
    I'm only beginning to fathom out how everything works, and it would be nice to have the freedom to play (and to make mistakes) in order to learn what I need to know.

    Eliz
     
  73. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    UK folks, I've put together a list of foods, their carb values, and some other basic info.
    The list is on the 4th page of the draft document that BJ links to in her quote above (click on her link and then on 'UK Food List Draft B' at the top left hand side of the page.)

    I fully accept that it may not be everything that people want or need, but I felt it was important to get some information out there (albeit basic).

    The list includes: The brand name, the variety, where it can be bought, the percentage of calories from carbs, the phosphorous level if available (dry matter calculation), the calories per 100g, and a 'comments' column that includes the pack sizes and, alongside that, any other comments that seemed particularly pertinent to make (I accept that 'what to include' is subjective and therefore is bound, at times, to seem either incomplete or to be too much info (depending on your perspective)).
    The 'calories per 100g' are next to the pack sizes so it should be easy to calculate how many calories in a can/pouch (and if the pack size is 100g it's a no-brainer....;) )

    There is also a section at the far side of the sheet that shows more information from the can/pouch label ('Typical Analysis' percentages); so if folks feel they need to do more calculations themselves because of their kitty's own specific needs then they should have the data to do that.

    The 'percentage of calories from carbs' column, the 4th column in, is yellow and so should still be easy to find as you scroll down the page ('follow the yellow brick road.....')

    This sheet doesn't do any calculations. I did them myself, so they may not all be perfect.

    There are over 150 foods listed, including a handful of raw foods.
    Many of the foods are from Zooplus or the Happy Kitty Co. (God bless 'em), but I have tried to include some lower carb foods from supermarkets also.
    The main purpose, in compiling the list, was to show foods that had less than 10% cals from carbs; and what the sheet doesn't show is the relative quality of the foods on the list.

    The list I've collated can be added to, and maybe the table can also be augmented to include other useful stuff (though that would quite possibly need to be done by someone smarter than me.)

    I hope you find this information useful. If you know of foods that you'd like added to the list then please let me know what they are. And also let me know if you spot any errors and I'll do my best to correct them.

    Best wishes,

    Eliz
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
    Bron and Sheba (GA) and KPassa like this.
  74. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Well, what can I say but wow! Eliz, you have done an amazing job and we are all indebted to you for your dedication and hard work. Just a thought - would it be an idea to start a new thread to update everyone on this matter, so it can go to the top of the list and everyone can see that real progress has been made?
    Thank you Eliz for all your work on behalf of kitties and their peeps...

    Diana x
     
  75. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    Hi Elizabeth

    This is fantastic! Well done it's going to be such a great resource. Sorry I haven't commented before, when remi is poorly I tend to obsess by myself and so haven't been online much recently.

    Can you add filters to the top of the columns so you can filter results.
     
  76. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    That sounds like it could be helpful, Sarah, but I've no idea how to do that (and can that be done with a 'read-only' version?). I've just about worked out how to type in those fiddly itsy bitsy boxes and that's pretty much the extent of what I'm capable of so far (not being the techy type)
    But maybe BJ @BJM can help..?

    I'm so very sorry to hear that Remi is poorly.:(
    Is it a pancreatitis flair up?
    Sending well-wishes to your beautiful boy, and hugs to you,

    Eliz
     
  77. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Hello Elizabeth,
    Just seen you have released the UK food list.I haven't been around for a few days as Bailey has developed another problem,his breathing was slightly heavy so off to the vet,he couldn't pick up anything listening to his breathing,so took X-ray,it showed slight fluid on lungs!!
    You have done a brilliant job on the food list,thank you so much for all the hard work it must have taken a lot of effort on your part.it's very comprehensive.
     
  78. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oh, Diane...
    Poor Bailey, and poor you. You've had so much to cope with lately.
    ....Is Bailey's tail healing at all.....?

    Hugs to you, and well-wishes to Bailey,

    Eliz
     
  79. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    I was able to freeze the heading rows, however due to cells which are merged together, it was not possible to put any kind of data filter on it. If you want that functionality, all rows below the filtering row must have individual cells; no merged cells. You may be able to save a copy to your own drive, or download it to your computer, unmerge any cells, copy down data into the now blank unmerged cells, then apply a data filter.
     
    Elizabeth and Bertie likes this.
  80. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Hi Elizabeth,
    Bailey is back at the vet tomorrow,his tail is bandaged up,but yes it is healing,and he isn't trying to pull the bandage off.
    We seem to be getting one health issue after another,but this latest one I am so concerned about.the vet wanted to have him in for the day and take fluid from his chest to find out what is causing the fluid,but I don't want him put through anymore stress,if it was the only health issue it would be different,but we seem to be battling with so many issues.
     
  81. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Thanks for that, BJ. That was really kind of you.
    Though - huge apologies - I must confess that I only understood about every third word of that... (Nothing to do with your explanation, and everything to do with my inability to comprehend...):oops:
    (In my next life maybe I'll be blessed with brain-stuff instead of having to be someone who just spends their days fiddling with arty-farty stuff in order to to earn a shekel or two... :rolleyes:)

    Eliz
     
  82. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Diane,
    Good luck with tomorrow's vet visit! :bighug:
    (BTW - Have PM'd you)

    Eliz
     
  83. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    When 2 cells are joined into 1 bigger cell, they anchor the data in such a way you can't sort it.

    Freezing rows (always at the top) means making it so when you page down, those rows stay displayed at the top. You can freeze columns on the left, too.

    To filter data, the spreadsheet has a way to make drop down arrows that you can click on, display a list of values in that column, then select specific values to review. It cuts down on wading through pages and pages of data you don't want to see. For example, you might want to select only foods that list "pate" or "duck".
     
  84. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    Oh dear there seems to be a few of us from the uk whose cats are having problems.

    About two weeks ago remi started to throw up in the morning before his first feed and then over that first weekend I had to take him to the vets because he had trouble peeing. The peeing resolved with additional water intake but the throwing up continued as did the gurgling tummy and burping. I took him to his normal vet and it seems that remi has had a flair up of his small intestine issue and pancreatitis but his kidney values are also out of whack (high urea, high creatinine high cholesterol, slightly high sodium and slightly high ALT). So now I am wondering if the change to a very high protein diet hasn't been the best for him kidney wise but I am struggling to know what to change to as I don't really understand all the implications. Should I start a new thread listing out all of remi's issues and asking for help?

    In essence I want a food that is :

    Single source
    Grain free
    Low phosphorus level
    Not too high in fat
    Less protein than the thrive

    What is classed as high in relation to salt intake?
     
  85. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Sounds like a good idea to start a new thread, Sarah. You'll get a lot more 'eyes' on your questions that way.
     
  86. LynRich

    LynRich Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2014

    Thanks so much for that Elizabeth, it's very helpful !
     
  87. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
  88. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
  89. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
  90. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Gosh, you've been busy, Sarah! @phlika29
    Thanks for that info on possible foods; I'll certainly look those up. :)
    (And I just read that article you linked to; very interesting....)

    It's a bit of a coincidence that you've mentioned a grain free dry food, because I had a spare afternoon yesterday and spent most of the time looking at grain free dry foods (yep, I really know how to live...:rolleyes: ).
    I thought I'd found one on Zooplus (Porta 21 grain free dry food) that has less than 10% calories from carbs. :woot: ...But it seemed a bit too good to be true, so I looked up the label data on the manufacturer's website and sure enough, it's slightly different to the data on the Zooplus website. It's still not bad though at 10.8% calories from carbs.
    We do sometimes get folks here whose diabetic cats are dry food addicts, or who have another cat in the house who is a dry food addict, and I have been wondering if the lower carb versions of dry foods could have a role, especially perhaps as a transition food.

    Thanks again for the info, Sarah!
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  91. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
  92. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
  93. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Thanks again for the links you gave, Sarah @phlika29
    That info has resulted in another 11 cat foods being added to the UK list. :)

    Some of the Canagan cat foods are supplementary (ie not complete), but it might also be worth listing a few supplementary foods as these can be very useful for tempting inappetant cats, and for giving meds (as they tend to be very palatable).

    (The 'Instinct' pet foods are US foods and I couldn't find them for sale in the UK. But they still look like a good option for US folks!)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
  94. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Hi Sarah,

    I emailed the crowd about the Toplife food for you. They don't do it anymore but they said that it used to be manufactured at the same facility as Bozita, and that the Bozita was a similar formulation.

    FWIW, I tried the Bozita chicken tetrapak for my civvie but she wouldn't eat it. Maybe try PMing Cassandra (@SweetAngel )? I think she feeds Bozita to her little ones and might be able to give you more of a guide on the Boz foods.
     
  95. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
  96. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Someone recently had a major problem with the Orijen Wysong Epigen 90 dry food and the cat was in bad shape.

    The post is here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
  97. phlika29

    phlika29 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
  98. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
  99. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Thanks, Sarah,
    Of all the UK dry cat foods that I've looked at that one actually is a contender. But I think the 'typical analysis' on the label is somehow wrong (either that or it contains something that isn't listed in the ingredients).
    I contacted the manufacturer over a week ago to ask for clarification about the ingredients and the 'typical analysis' percentages. The reply I received contained a chunk of info about their foods but didn't answer my questions at all.... I've been contacting quite a few cat food companies lately to ask various questions, and rarely get a straightforward reply. :banghead:

    I felt that one of them must have thought I was some sort of industry spy, so I explained that I needed the information because I wanted to know if their food could be suitable for my diabetic cat. They then emailed me their info about food for diabetic cats which included that diabetics need a diet "high in carbohydrates..." o_O
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page