numbers in black - sunday - no vet to ask..

Advised to put this as a 911..
Kitty has just gone on to 1.5 units of vetsulin. yesterday it semed that his numbers were a little better. (I didn't do a morning test, he was cranky) today at .5 hours he was 20.5 now at +9 hours he is 28.5. This is the highest he has ever been.
He is not showing any signs of distress, nor wanting to drink, although it is really hot here..but inside is OK. Should we inject now, 2 hours earlier than usual.
Worried.

 

We usually don't suggest shooting quite that early.....If you shoot at +11 tonight, can you shoot 12 hours later in the morning?....so like if you shoot at 10pm tonight instead of 11pm, can you shoot at 10am?

 

Just FYI.....the 911 you use in a medical emergency is available if you "edit" your subject line (or when you first post)….You'd go to your subject line and choose the 911 prefix and then once you have someone to help, you go back and remove it and choose "no prefix"

Go to "Thread tools" and then "Edit"


Then you can choose a prefix


But high numbers aren't considered a medical emergency (but low ones are!!) ….but you can always say something like "scared and need help!" in your title!

 

crisis adverted...it's all so new and confusing and scarey...anyway, we decided to give him two units instead of 1.5 and after 3 hours he has dropped to the yellow zone..I hope we have done the right thing..
and thank you to everyone..Chris, thank you for letting me know that high numbers are not a medical emergency..I thought it was! Horrified when I saw them.. Learning every day.

 

Huey has a very high reading again mid afternoon..8 hours after 1.5 units. We gave him the 1.5 this morning just to see if the same thing happened to day as yesterday. and It did. Why?? His morning meal was low carbohydrate..sardines in springwater..rinsed thoroughly to remove salt..
After yesterday's reading, in the black at + 9 hours, but back to red at + 11. we gave him 2 units and 3 hours later it was down to 11.3 in the yellow..
we are cautious about giving 2 units every time without the vet's advice.
It seems so weird. He is not showing signs of distress, and he only had a little chicken meat around 10.30 am

 

He could be bouncing from the 11.3 (203) yesterday and that is why you are getting high numbers again.
Bouncing happens when kitty's blood sugar drops too fast, too low or lower than they have been used to. The liver says 'help save me' and the body releases sugar and some hormones and the blood sugar shoots up. This is normal especially in newly diagnosed cats. Bounces can last up to 6 cycles.
I can't see any numbers yet in your spreadsheet. Have you been testing for long?
Numbers can start off high and drop low then go back up high towards the end of the cycle. If you are not testing during the cycle, you would not know that this had happened. Also every cycle is not the same so because you have a high cycle in one cycle it doesn't mean you will have a high cycle the next and visa versa with low numbers.
What type of food are you feeding. Wet or dry?

If you could fill out your signature it would be very helpful. It is in the top right of the page under your user name. Write yours and kitty's name, date of diagnosis, type of insulin and meter, dose, type of food, county you live in, any other illnesses or meds. That will help us and then we won't have to ask you the same questions over and over again.
Keep posting and asking questions.
I am going to tag @Kris & Teasel as she can help you with the vetsulin insulin. She could be asleep at the moment but she will answer.
Bron

 

thank you. I use the Alphatrak 2 spreadsheet for world use..and I have updated the signature panel. I have the numbers in the spreadsheet and I hope you can read them OK.

 

I feed him wet food. Raw chicken and turkey mince. Cooked baked chicken, no skin, Cooked ling fish fillet. Cooked chicken hearts. 1/3 - 1/2 of his calorie allowance of 240 from this. Canned Dine Pate for the rest. All low carbs. He used to eat a mix of wet and dry..specialty Siamese brand..fat lot of good that did!! I do have liquid Vitamin B12 , which I have been giving my dog (IMHA and pancreatitis bouts) but it is not nice smelling so I haven't tried with Huey. (and I thought dealing with IMHA was hard enough..we have a freezer for the animals now as prepared special food is a must for both.)

 

I've just noticed you live in Australia! So do I. I am in Sydney.
It is not very usual to find someone out here who is using Vetsulin. Glargine (Lantus) is the insulin most vets use.
Is Huey a tonkinese? I had a beautiful tonk girl called Duchess who lived to 22 years.
I feed a raw diet to my cats as well. What do you do for the supplements as there are no specific packages out here to add to the food.. I used to make up my own when Sheba was alive but now I feed a frankenprey diet.

I would ask your vet if you could change over to Glargine insulin. It is a gentler insulin and longer lasting and a very good insulin for cats.. it is not as harsh as vetsulin and normally doesn't have the sharp drops that vetsulin can have..

 

I am thinking the same re changing insulin. She did mention that she watches alot of webinars on feline and canine diabetes, and reads the forums. A good vet all in all. She did mention Lantus, and I will talk to her about Glargine on Wednesday when she returns to work. she said to send her his numbers via phone, or email and she will advise without us coming to the clinic..also charged us for a 5 minute visit when we talked for 20 or more..sympathetic to our hip pockets, (dogalog was very expensive to treat...in the $1000's..) and the boss of the clinic. I haven't thought much about supplements yet, especially manufactured ones. The sardines ( home brand) have little bones..calcium. Chicken hearts and thigh meat have the taurine, but I found out that if cooked, the taurine leaches out in the water that comes from the meat, so keep the water and add it to the food. Taurine is an essential amino acid found in muscle meat. Chicken hearts, no more than 7 per week due to something or other..I forget....I might slip a bit of mashed pumpkin into his dinner if we are having it..he loves peas too..whereas he'd eat a plateful, now I give him TWO..mean mummy! And also commercial cat food as recommended by the files on the fb page. I live on the Central Coast, very southern end of Lake macquarie. We go to sydney often...or at least we used to before all this injection business and having to be home at certain times..not an issue tho.. Huey was from a rescue place and we were told he was part Siamese...the photo is of his younger days..he is much darker now, and getting grey around his face. A good kittykat all in all. This diabetes business is so confusing..especially the highs and lows we are getting. What I see most of all, is that there is absolutely no improvement over almost 30 days of modified diet and Vetsulin. He remains in the pink and red zone..exactly where he was on diagnosis. However, his demeanor has improved. He is not drinking all the time, and not peeing in the house, and spraying on the walls, which we caught him at and just could not understand it. We thought the puddles were from the dog...and he got blamed..poor dog!! Luckily it was not smelly, so diluted with water that there was no smell at all. This forum is so good to help calm the parents of new patients....I tell myself, " we do our best" and if kitty gets through this well and good..if not, then he had a higher calling. Same with dogalog..he had a 50/50 chance of survival and made it.. sorry, I tend to write novels..type faster than I talk..we will be watching the fireworks on the tv..and kitty kit,as we gave him 2 units tonight, so I want to keep an eye on him. Pancreatitis..doggy had that too in September, from his meds and I was feeding him lots of fatty goodies as he lost 1/3 of his body weight..now he is on low fat, lots of veges and lean meat. Kitty is on high protein, no carbs.
Thank you again for being one of those who help us newbies to understand .... .all the best for 2019

 

the Glargine ( Lantus??) is terribly expensive from the one place I looked..where do you get it cheaper??

 

Huey looks very like my Duchy so I would think he is a tonkinese which is half Siamese and half Burmese.
With the chicken hearts it is no more than 7 a day because of the sodium in them. I usually feed about two or theee raw ones a day to each cat. Look at this link
https://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition/take-heart-but-not-too-much

With the calcium, it is really important to feed enough calcium or you will get problems down the line. I feed one of my cats raw chicken bones three to four times a week for calcium and he loves them. The other cat has very few teeth due to having double lots of back teeth which all had to come out when she was a kitten because they were causing major problems, so she can't eat bones so she gets ground egg shell powder for calcium. If you are interested I can tell you how to do it and how much to give. It is super easy to do...takes 5 minutes to do and lasts ages.
I also feed a raw egg yoke a week each for the B vitamins and other minerals. And acan of sardines in spring water each week for omega 3.
Also about 5 grams of liver a day...Only a tiny amount but necessary for vitaminA and about 10 grams of lambs kidney a day( as the secreting organ which they need. I freeze all the stuff in portion sizes and get out as needed each day.
Even though I feed all the food raw I still give a pinch of taurine a day to ensure enough is given. Minced food also loses taurine as well as cooked. Have you tried kangaroo meat? Sheba used to love it and so does Clover but it makes Harry vomit for some reason. It is very good and the mince is reasonably priced.....at WW.

With the insulin...I am guessing you know that glargine and Lantus are the same thing. We call it glargine and the US calls it Lantus. A lot of vets don't know a lot about feline diabetes and they treat them like they would canines with diabetes but they are quite different. We recommend that the dose is only increased 0.25 (1/4) unit at a time. Most vets increase it a whole unit at a time which is a lot for a tiny cat and it also means that you can go past the best dose.
We also base increases and decreases of the insulin on the nadir ( the lowest point that the insulin takes the cat during a cycle) not the preshot number. Taking a preshot reading is important to ensure that the blood sugar level is high enough to give the insulin but then taking a reading at say +4 or/and +6 ( 4 to 6 hours after the insulin is given) will tell us how low kitty is going and if the dose is right or not. Because members are all over the world we talk in +4 ,+8 etc, not times of the day as people from the US would have no idea what time it is here if we said I took the test at 10 am etc. but they would understand if you said I took the test at +7. Does that make sense?
With an insulin like vetsulin you will see highs and lows each cycle, because of the nature of the insulin. With glargine it is a different type of insulin, longer acting, and which has a 'depot' which over time helps the insulin dose form flatter curves during the cycles, because of the way the insulin is released into the body.
It is all by frustrating and confusing in the beginning but it gets easier. Keep asking lots of questions and read all you can. The yellow stickies at the top of the different pages have a lot of info. Also this link of FAQ is good
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/health-links-faqs-about-feline-diabetes.14/

I can't see your spreadsheet anymore since you did your signature. Did you click Share on it?

Here is a link to how to recognise a hypo (apart from testing) and if you are testing it is the best way to keep Huey safe. But it is good to have this info. Do you have honey and high carb food in the house in case it is needed. If you are using an Alphatrak the take action number is 68. That is when you should give some honey or high carb and retest in 20 minutes to make sure Huey is coming up higher.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/

We will probably be watching the fireworks on TV as well although we can see them fairly well from our balcony. We can just see the harbour bridge but not the bottom half with the fire works which spray downwards. We have just had a huge electrical storm go through which must have soaked all the thousands of people gathered around the harbour waiting for the fireworks at 9 pm and midnight.

All the best for 2019 to you and your family and to your furry family. I hope your doggie keeps improving. We can help you get on the right track with Huey, but it takes time. It is not something that can he fixed in a week. Insulin is a hormone and it takes time to work

 

When I got glargine from the vet it used to cost $150 for one of the little tubes of 300 units which if you are giving 1 to 2 units twice a day would last quite a while. The vet was always quite expensive for the insulin..
Because Sheba was on 6 units twice a day I got a script from the vet and used to get a box of 5x 3ml(300 units) for $99.. from the chemist.
I can find out more for you if you like. Glargine is definitely worth the extra money though. It is a better insulin for cats.
How much was the insulin you saw?

Maybe your vet would sell you the tube of insulin cheaper. She would probably have to buy it is a box of five though. It was cheaper for me to buy the box of 3ml (300 units) x 5 than get the one from the vet.
You will use a different syringe as well, not the one you use to give vetsulin.
This is the syringe you would use for GLARGINE insulin
https://petchemist.com.au/products/...328822-100-pack?ref=isp_rel_prd&isp_ref_pos=9

 

I'll let Bron give you advice for now if you're thinking of trying Lantus (glargine). If you need a vet prescription for it from a human pharmacy try hard to make the case. I'm lucky here in Canada: the price in $CDN is similar to what Bron paid but I can buy it over the counter - no prescription required.

 

Hi, Thanks Kris for looking...the vetsulin is just not making any difference. Ive made an appointment tomorrow, it's New Years Day today to change insulin. ( with an almost full bottle of Vetsulin in the fridge..thats alot of $ gone to waste) ...Bron, thanks for all that information... no idea where the proper link went , but I have put a link in the signature box and it seems to work. I'll go through the spreadsheet information again later int he day. He is still the same though...ie no change BG wise from day of diagnosis... And thanks for all the food information. I have read alot of similar from various sources, but there is just so much to absorb. What you have said makes sense. I do make up little packets of food and freeze, and will add as you suggested. Huey has few teeth too. I have calcium powder for Andre ( dog) That should be ok for kitty. I'll check. Andre cant have bones anymore as his immune system is compromised..no raw food either. When I cook Andre's food, I keep the water..amazing how much gelatine comes even from the breast meat. Both animals love it. And bones go into the stock pot. sigh...I wake up far too early these days to check on Huey..so when I get this sorted, sleep is what I am going to get more of. Thanks again.

 

Don't give up yet! There's a lot of help available here or on the Lantus forum. It's usually a case of kitty not yet in optimal dose range.

 

I can see the SS now thanks. And all the BSLs you have put in. Great! Also all the info you are putting in the remarks column is really helpful and will be good for you to look back on. You could add things like what he ate and when .. eg raw food at Preshot, Dine low carb at +4; if drinking a lot, if lethargic or active etc.
Has the vet suggested you test for ketones?
Diabetic cats that are unregulated and are in high numbers can be prone to getting ketones which can lead to ketoacidosis which is a very serious illness. Not all cats are prone to them but it is very worth while testing for them while Huey is unregulated and in high numbers.
It is very easy to do. What you need is to get a bottle of Ketostix from the chemist which costs about $10 from the section that has all the diabetic equipment. It is a bottle of 100 test strips that test for ketones and glucose in the urine. Just get a urine specimen from Huey and dip the strip in the urine and read exactly 15 seconds later. Anything more than a trace needs a vet visit. It’s a good insurance policy to test every couple of days while he’s high and unregulated.

 

thank you again..I can get the urine easily enough and the strips tomorrow..put him in the carry box and go for a drive! He always wees in that. . these are the results from when he was first diagnosed. No ketones at that point. I have started putting food comments etc..all in all starting to calm down and not thinking he is going to have a crisis any and every second..Going to test again today at 2.30, then at 6.30 ..just before shot..the last of my current Alpha test strips before the vet visit tomorrow..then I'll have a good daily result which I haven't been able to do before now due to work and all the other things..nerves too!! ..however..I'm starting to be smart and collecting blood in my Contour human meter too..and they both read in the same colour box's. Eventually I'll use the human one most of the time..the local small chemist will sell me the strips for the cheapest price I can find elsewhere..and I will ask him about prescription Lantus, rather than get it on line..I checked that out and bookmarked it. Taurine..I'll see about it at the health food shop . tomorrow.

 

That is really good he didn't have ketones at diagnosis. But keep checking until he is regulated.
It is hard in the beginning not to get stressed. I remember my sister coming to visit me in the beginning of our journey and all I talked about for the 2 hours was Sheba and her high BSLs and how stressed I was about them.! My poor sister, she was very patient and sympathetic!
A human meter is just as good and the majority of us use a human meter.
The Alphatrak meters have only been out here in Australia for 2 years and up until then all the vets used the human meters. Our 2 protocols for managing feline diabetes (the Tight regulation and the Start Low go Slow protocols) are based on human meters.
If you swap over to a human meter, it is much cheaper to buy the strips. I used to buy all mine on eBay for half the cost.
If you do swap over you need to change your signature to reflect that and also on your SS as the Alphatrak meter gives higher reading than the human meter does.

When you buy any of the supplements like taurine make sure they have nothing else added and are pure.
You are doing a good job. Huey is lucky to have you

 

would you mind letting me know where you get the Taurine. Where I live it's miles to anywhere..one on line place charged $19 for postage..for a $6 packet..ummmmm..I'm pretty sure that is what I saw..
The numbers clearly show now that Vetsulin peaks way to early then disappears from his system. The initial vet, I discovered was a young lass...a locum..and she gave us the wrong insulin..should have known it's not used these days for cats....I am certainly going to make my concerns known..and see what they can do re the $150 (drug and needles) we have just spent.

 

I buy all my supplements from iherb in the US. It is very reasonable and gets here in under a week normally. There is no great rush for you to get the taurine so if you were happy to wait you could get it from iherb.
This is what I get
https://au.iherb.com/pr/now-foods-taurine-pure-powder-8-oz-227-g/7425

I'm sure you will be much happier with Lantus. Make sure you get the correct syringes to go with the Lantus insulin....the ones in the link above. I used to get a box of 100 syringes for around $30 a box from my local chemist.
The Lantus insulin was in a box of 5 x3 ml of penfills. You would not need a full box but maybe you could get the chemist to sell you one, or the vet to sell you one at a reasonable cost. They are used in insulin pens for humans but can have the insulin drawn from the little rubber stopper at one end and the pen is not used at all, so you don't need to buy the pen. Lantus does not need to be mixed before use like the vetsulin does and it needs to be kept in the frig in a little glass/container in the frig....not the door...and if stored properly will last for 6 months.
Can you tell us how much Huey weighs., so we can work out the best dose to start him off on?
With the Lantus, you need to stay on the same dose for 3 to 5 days for the depot to stabilise and for the full effect of the dose to be seen, unless he drops too low in which case you would reduce the dose.

 

Hi, he weighs 3.5 kgs. I know Iherb..I have purchased from there before..Milk Thistle for Andre's liver - steroids play havoc on it. Might even start to slip a little into Hueys food.. I was up this morning getting the animals food ready..before I even put the kettle on..out with the hearts, cooked chicken breast ( Andre) , the vege mix, the mince, Vitamin B liquid, bone broth, medication, glucose tester..they both got their morning first up's - then I got my cup of tea!! hummmmph!! reminds me of the baby days
I've got all the relevant points re vetsulin -v- Lantus summarised ready for the vet this morning. It will be an interesting day for sure.

 

Good morning. I Hope it goes well for you at the vet today.
Using the formula 0.25 units/ kg of weight Huey’s starting dose would be 0.875 units or rounded off to 0.9 units and since he has been on insulin before that is taken into consideration. We don’t know if he is getting too much or not enough insulin really so I think a safe dose to start would be 1 unit twice a day of the Glargine.
It will be interesting to see what the vet thinks.
That dose is held for at least three days to let the depot fill. Always get a Preshot test and a mid cycle test. Test more often if you can as all tests help us see how he is reacting to the insulin. The dose going forward is based on the nadir or lowest point in the cycle.

 

thank you again, all info printed, got the highlight pen out and will be well prepared .

 

My vet (our usual vet, the boss and most experienced at the clinic and dogalogs physician) this morning agreed with my concerns re Vetsulin and said she was looking into the decision to prescribe it ( by the locum) in the first place. I was stressed and had a mini meltdown and she fully understood the stress I have been under the past year with dogalog then kittykat. So, change of prescription, no vet fees for the day, free box of appropriate needles and a credit back on the Vetsulin ones. " dont stress, just phone me" was what she said..." we'll get him better". I'll start tonight, kitty was weighed and the start dose is 2 units. I see the beginning of a better road now. thanks to all.

 

I'm glad she was agreeable to change over to glargine.
I think 2 units is too high to start with twice a day though. You have only given a couple of doses at 2 units of catsulin. 1 unit or at the most 1.5 units is all I would give. You can always go up in dose.

Make sure you test for ketones while Huey is high and unregulated.
Can you change your signature to reflect the change of insulin please?
Try and get mid cycle (around +4 to +6) tests in. Cats often drop lower at night so don't neglect the PM cycle. If Huey drops lower early in the cycle, that is telling you that it is an active cycle and you will need to test further. When the numbers drop during a cycle you will need to test until the numbers start to go back up again or plateau.
If in doubt, always post and ask for assistance....and change your subject line to reflect your issue.
And please make sure you test before EVERY shot to see it is safe to give the shot. We have just had an incidence last night where someone inadvertently forgot to test before the shot and the kitty dropped to dangerously low levels a couple of hours after the shot.

How much did the glargine cost you?
Good luck with the new insulin.
I'll be watching his SS so can you record all his BSLs please?

 

The glargine cost me $105 on prescription, the needles about $30. that is not too bad. I was out all day so didn't get any readings throughout the day, same tomorrow and friday..hubby may do it.. We will have to use the human spreadsheet, as I have the strips etc for that..its a bit of chop and change but at least the colours are a good indication. The AlpahTrak strips come in a day or two I expect. I'll do as best I can to get 1.5..the half way mark between what the glargine information sheet says ( .5 unit per kg body weight) and the experience of others. Anyway, Huey has gotten used to high BG so a few more days wont hurt. Just about to fix up the signature sheet, and put a link to the human sheet on . I tried to get enough blood for both tonight, but didn't work and kitty got cranky....cranky is a good sign in our Huey, shows he is feeling feisty. He even went for a walk next door during the day. (our neighbour loves him and knows not to leave any food out) . Fingers crossed for better results over the next few weeks..good thing I have no commitments for most of January, so can do tests etc regularly through the day. Thank you again ..and I found the smiley's I love them!!

 

Darn, cant put two links.
This is it anyway, the human one. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9hgA-baxkPb1MK9ClsNFG2PeInk/edit#gid=67232216

 

Did you click SHARE on the SS. I can only see google drive .. no SS

 

no...I forgot that..I'll try again and I thought I was a whizz kid with 'puters.. Ive just had to do first injection, hubbie done them before (he's not here and anyway I have to learn) ..I almost pricked myself..I hope I did it right..no air etc.. Kitty was not impressed with my technique.
This is the shareable link to the human spreadsheet. In 4 hours I'll test on the human meter again. Pity we cant put two links on the signature page. I guess that would be confusing. After the new lot of Alpha strips are used I will probably do all on the human one. just depends on how kitty is doing. thank you for your time with this.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FBhiUHP3nY22i9gK9hgA-baxkPb1MK9ClsNFG2PeInk/edit?usp=sharing

 

I can see it now thanks. Can you write on the line you are using now on the SS ( in the spaces where you would have written the AM BSLs ‘ Glargine started PM dose’
please.
It will probably look a bit messy but ok for now. I might ask @Marje and Gracie if she can look at it and work out what’s the best thing to do with the SS if you are going to be using both the human and the alphatrak meters.
What time did you give the PM dose so I can work out when +4 is?

 

I’d like to make a suggestion for your SS. First, I can modify an originally AT SS to a human SS so you only need one SS. If you PM me, I’m happy to do that for you. To send me a PM, just click on “Marje and Gracie” to the left and then “start a conversation”.

And we need to be sure you have the correct SS links.

My second suggestion is, if you have the human meter, just switch. Keep one SS. I also had an AT2 and I used it when Gracie was running lower so I could see how low she actually was. But it doesn’t make any sense to switch back and forth and keep two SSs. We strongly urge members to pick a meter and stick with it.

 

Hi, thank you for writing to me. We have just started on Lantus and so I will use the Contour strips and human spreadsheet from now on. And change the signature box this evening..(again ) I think I will keep the Alpha Trak SS as is for the time being. We are getting more test strips, but I will keep them for occasional testing, like you did when Gracie was running lower. I find numbers etc confusing ( I am more a visual person) so go alot by the colours.. We got a YELLOW this morning! First yellow ever, and this is due to the Lantus, I'm sure. However, I will ponder this all again during the next few days..I am of to the Art Gallery in Sydney for a day trip ..Picasso, Kandinsky their paintings reflect my brain patterns at the moment I'm sure!! Be good to get away for the day and leave hubby in charge. Thank you again for taking time to guide me in this journey. cheers.

 

Hi Linda.
I see you are going to do the SLGS protocol and I see you aren’t doing a curve for 5 days. But to keep Huey safe I would recommend you get at least one test each mid cycle to see how low the glargine is taking him.
He’s looking better on the glargine already

 

Hi, well, my kitty kat is just being cantankerous!!..His reading was soooooo high this morning..probably a bounce effect. ( and payback for jabbing his ear vein last night) But he is acting quite normally, so we will wait and see. I cant do mid tests today..duty calls, but tomorrow I will. I know it will settle down..just have to wait. cheers.

 

Tomorrow and for all next week I am home around midday, so I'll be back at the testing again - just mid cycle. Kitty can cope with that. Cheers, and thank you

 

Hi Linda
The 30.1 BSL this morning is most likely a bounce from dropping low in the PM cycle. Can hubby get a midcycle test while you are out today? This is the only safe way to find out if the insulin dose is too high.
If not I would leave food out for him to eat in case he drops low.
I would highly recommend getting a test tonight midcycle.

 

Hi. I'll ask hubby to do the test mid cycle. we do tend to give him food around midday..the dog has to have 4 small meals a day, so when one has its mouth in the food bowl..both want to..and we can do a test mid cycle tonight..All the information from the Glargine sheets etc indicate that 1.5 should be OK. Wait and see, as per usual. Have a lovely day!

 

Bounces can last for up to 6 cycles, so if his BSLs remain high for a few days this is probably the reason ....not that it isn't enough insulin. Have a great day too!

 

Huey has come off the bounce quickly. It will be interesting to see how low he can go this cycle. Well done getting the mid cycle today!

 

and this morning..another high level. I've done the research..phrases like " dawn Phenomenon" and Semogi effect have come into my vocabulary. However, he is not looking distressed, has a bit of a play with his toy and appears OK. So give him his shot, test during the day and wait for the week to finish. There are various treatment options mentioned, (for humans) ..but again, wait wait and wait..towards the end of the week I will see about testing him mid cycle in the night time...( now that is dedication.. or obsession?? ) Maybe it will always be like this..darn cat .. we do/did love our overnight trips to Sydney for a bit of a swing dance ... time will tell. I've got through worse than this with other family members..patience, faith and perseverance. I also love those little emogie things..give me more!!!

 

Hi Linda
It looks like he has bounced again most likely from dropping low overnight. I would recommend you get a test overnight. Please don’t wait a week. If you feel you can’t get a mid cycle test, can you get a test before you go to sleep? This will let you know if he is dropping low and if you need to retest.
At this point he is just getting used to the hormone ( insulin) and very few cats fall into regulation this early. It is normal to have blood sugar level up and down but a really high one does indicate a bounce from a low number.
It’s not obsession to test overnight it’s something we all do to make sure our kitties stay safe.
Bouncing happens when a cat drops too low, drops too fast or drops lower than the cat is used to. His body thinks it has to save itself and dumps glucose and regulatory hormones into his system and his blood sugar shoots up high, hence the bounce.
Do you leave food out for him overnight?
Bron

 

I gave him some food before I go to bed..it was late last night..around 11.30pm..and I am thinking of leaving food out overnight..he is not guttsing as much now..just eating what he wants..so, yes that is a good idea. Tonight we will be late home again..( we go out dancing rock n roll) so, I will test tonight when we get home..and leave food out. It will be interesting to see what changes...in the meantime, while I sit here onthe computer and research .. the Kat has gone for his walkies next door to visit his 'aunty'...she knows not to put food out, but he does like to go and inspect the premises daily and sit under her porch..she has a cat that he seems to be friends with....that is his usual behaviour, so I'm happy to see that. cheers ps..I think I will weigh him again..haha..into a box and onto the post scale I keep here..he is not impressed so I have to be quick about it..

 

That’s a good plan to test when you get home tonight. I’d leave some food out overnight for him to eat in case he drops low... they usually feel the need to eat if they drop really low.
It would be a good plan to always test before you go to bed, then if he’s dropping low you can set the alarm and test him in a couple of hours. Do you have some higher carb food in the house and some honey in case you need it?
If you read the yellow stickies at the top of the various forums they will give you good info. I’m on my mobile at the moment but when I get a chance to get on my iPad I will send you the link to some excellent info we have here. I know it is hard to trust a bunch of crazy cat ladies/ and men online but I can promise you the people here live feline diabetes 24/7 and are extremely knowledgeable
Not much else to do in this heat but stay inside and try and stay cool.

 

Hubby just made me a lovely coffee so while I am having that I will send you these links I mentioned above. I hope they are useful.

If you haven't come across this link of FAQ here it is
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/health-links-faqs-about-feline-diabetes.14/

This is a great link with lots of info
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/where-can-i-find-________.127890/

The document you were given from the Queensland Uni is probably the same one I was given in 2011 when Sheba was first diagnosed with FD. I found it very useful at the time, as I had nothing else but when I found FDMB I had access to so much more info and support. I have spoken to Rhett Marshall who was one of the guys who was doing that research at Q'land Uni and he was terrific.
Here is a link to the tight regulation protocol and where it originated.......you can see a copy of the document by Roomp and Rand which is probably similar ( although a longer version) to what you have. Over the years things have been tweaked ........
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/tight-regulation-protocol-tr.1581/

 

such alot of reading...I am getting to it all. Now a question..I have read this sticky Frequently Asked Questions List for the Feline Diabetes Message Board. FIRST. I feed Huey a variety of food, eg raw chicken mince, canned low or zero carb..I got him some of that (expensive) Natures Feast,cooked fish, He gets some Dine Pate and there is some fancy feast pate on it's way. They spoke about inconsistency in feeding times as a cause of the rebound effect. He gets main meals at breakfast and dinner time.. with a little bit midday..and now at 4.14 he's hungry and making a racket, so I gave him a teaspoonful of pate. Am I being inconsistent?
SECOND..With the Vetsulin, we seemed to get a better result..altho not very good, by injecting in the scruff, so Laurie has been doing this for the past few days. This article says that also may be a cause of rebound. What are your thoughts on that? We will go back to flank injecting..but my goodness, this is so complex!!
He only had a little bit of pate for lunch..I think due to the heat..so his reading at +10 is one unit lower..I would have thought by now it would be going up??
He is also back to 4kg ( before diabeties weight) .and I dont want him any heavier than that as it is a bit on the fat side..the little tummy dangles as he walks... At diagnosis he was 3.25.
I am sure picking your brains - thank you.

 

read some more from the links....the advice varies to a degree...so I guess it depends on the cat. (Next cat is going to be a toy one! )

 

First of all the feeding. We, on the forum have found that giving smaller meals more often is better for the pancreas.
So what you could do is divide up the days food into say three lots and give a third at shot time, a third at say + 3 and a third at +5 or +6. Then you would do the same for the night time food. A lot of us buy timed auto feeders to use when we are not there. The fact he was asking you for food at 4.15pm indicates that his BSL could be dropping, so was a good to check the BSL
Giving the food at +3 is when the insulin is starting to work and the +6 is when the insulin is often at its peak.

We have a saying here ....every cat is different ….. ECID.... therefore there are varies degrees of advice!

Most vets give injections in the scruff, but we have found that insulin is better absorbed in the flank or the side of the abdomen. Yes there is a lot to learn about FD and it is a steep learning curve in the beginning. but the great part is there are many people here who are willing and available to help and answer all questions at all times of the day and night..

you will find out over time that the cycles are not all the same and just because they are on a particular dose of insulin, it does not mean that every cycle will be consistent. once he is regulated ...and this takes time.....he will hopefully be more stable. At the moment we are just learning how Huey processes glargine in his body. For example, if he is coming off the bounce he could drop all the way to PMPS. Or he could be having a longer duration of the insulin in the cycle. That is why it is so important to take these tests.....and it is great you got another test in at +10.. it is all valuable information.. the SS is a bit like a jigsaw puzzle and the more bits you can fill in the better the picture.

I would like to recommend you start posting over on the L and L forum where everyone who is there uses lantus or Levemir...another very similar insulin ….and you will be able to get lots of helpful advice from very experienced people who have been looking after diabetic cats for years.
We do a new post every day and link the previous days post to the previous one for continuity. We write the date, name of kitty and the AMPS or other relevant info in the subject line.. Pop over and have a look. I can't get the link to work on this computer. I will hop on my ipad in a minute and send the link
Keep asking questions, it is the best way to learn

 

The L and L land forum link
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-basaglar-glargine-and-levemir-detemir.9/

 

Ok , I will do that, our conversation here is getting very long isn't it? I found that forum. And tonight..just to see..I'm going to freeze some lumps of food and leave them out when we go to bed. They will take a little while to defrost..so that will be a past midnight snack. Found the feeders, something else to think about. ..it's only the late night time snack that i really have to consider. Anyway, it's time to put conversations about FD and all the rest aside, and enjoy an evening with friends/family or just ourselves having a quiet night. Have a good one! cheers.

 

With the PMPS reading of 11.5 I would definitely get as late a reading as you can this evening as he could drop quite a bit lower tonight. If you find he has dropped a lot I would set the alarm and get another reading later. Do you have any higher carb food if needed? And some honey?
Did the vet give you a sheet on how to recognise a hypo and how to treat.? By the time they are showing symptoms they are extremely low. That is why we advocate testing between cycles so that scenario can be avoided.

 

Huey is one weird cat..I SAW that insulin go in..and what happens at + 5..up it goes. The frozen snacks for later seemed to have worked..lower morning reading..that is good. I'm going to measure out his daily ration today and give it to him in increments throughout the day ( up to 2 hours before shot time tho..I've read the info on that! and cross eyed from it all .. See what happens. Thank goodness it' a cooler day..have a good one. ps..I really do appreciate all your advice and comments..but if you need to take a break from me and Huey, please do so. Helping others can get a bit much sometimes..I know that from experience and sometimes we need a break and a recharge. Have a lovely day. Cheers .

 

your Sheba looks alot a kitty I had for only a short time..she was chased by a dog that got into our yard...jumped the back fence into the bush and was never seen again. Was she part Abyssinian? Gorgeous kitty. Do you have another kitty now?

 

Huey is responding to the insulin....it just takes time for the depot to build up and the right dose to be found.
The one thing we have all learnt here with FD is we all needed to buy patience pants. I had to buy several pairs
The most important thing in this dance is to keep Huey safe.
It's a journey not a sprint and just when you think you have learnt the steps to the FD dance, the kitty changes them!

Sheba was an Australian Mist which is half Burmese, quarter Abyssinian and quarter domestic short hair cat. She had a beautiful nature and loved to talk to me which I miss. She followed me around like a dog. I got Sheba and another kitty Maxie from a rescue centre....up until then I had never heard of an Australian Mist.
I have another Australian Mist now called Harry who is a gorgeous boy. Very affectionate. My daughters cat, who lives next door spends every day here so Harry has company.

 

I thought she looked like our Fynn..here is a photo..I've linked it to my little web page..he was quite stunning...Huey hated him though..we had to do some serious management..I have a feeling that when Fynn was chased of, he found a new home, there was a caravan park home thing at the back of us so he hopefully found a home there. http://www.swinglindy.com.au/pets.html

 

those Australian mist cats are just beautiful.... ( I AM NOT LOOKING!!) no more pets for us (hahahahaha famous last words..) maybe we will foster or pet sit when Huey and Andre cross the bridge..5-10 years..

 

Yes Fynn is a lovely looking boy. Looks like he could have some Burmese or Abyssinian in him. What a shame he ran away.

Yes the Australian Mist is a beautiful looking cat but also has an amazing nature. They get a lot of that from the Burmese and the intelligence from the Abyssinian and hopefully the stamina from the DSH.
Here is another photo of Sheba. She had lovely markings on her. She was a Blue Mist. I used to call her my snow leopard.

And below that is Harry. He is a golden Mist and his markings are not as pronounced. Also he is young and they darken with age. But he has the wonderful Mist nature.

ETA the photo of Harry didn't upload. It still won't. I'll. try and do it later

 

This is Harry. They are both Spotted Australian Mists

 

Beautiful cats..I'll bet they dont get dry cat food!!

 

No! They certainly don’t. I feed a home made raw diet. And I try and keep Harry slim. (He Loves his food). They say Australian Mists are the Labradors of the cat world and I have to say both Harry and Sheba love /loved their food.
I give bones as part of the diet which is great for teeth and I also clean Harry’s teeth each night.

 

Your cat lets you clean his teeth?? OMG..if I ever get another kitty ( nonononono!!) it will be one like Harry! Huey does not have many molar teeth left, they simply rotted when he was quite young and they were removed. As I get used to the regime, I will go for more raw food..taurine is coming in the mail soon, and I have calcium powder for dogalog. I have the info on the Frankensense? diet - it made sense to me - did you give me that? So many files printed out and in my on line folders now. My vet now has access to the on line chart..and is very pleased with what we are achieving, I got an email from her this morning. And a timed feeder on it's way. January, usual activities are suspended, but come February we both come and go, and I want to keep the regulated food supply going. I feel like I'm on a good path now.. have a lovely day!

 

Yes I gave you info on the frankenprey diet..to get a balanced diet you need all the different parts like the liver( very small amount daily), kidney ( small amount daily), muscle meats variety including chicken hearts......and the sardines once a week and an egg yoke once a week.. if the raw egg yoke gives him the runs, then cook it. I sprinkle a bit of taurine on the food each day and you will need to work out how much calcium powder you need as that is important.
Did I send you this site
https://perfectlyrawsome.com/cats/prey-model-raw-pmr-for-cats/

Have you thought about moving over to the Lantus forum to start posting?

 

yes you did...and I have seen the Lantus forum..but.... I like talking to you!! Anyway, we got Huey smoked trout filet as a treat after the ear jab..all is really going OK at the moment..the Lantus is doing the job well and he is stabilising in the yellow zone. We will most likely up to 2 units next week..and see if we can get him a bit lower. He is certainly feeling better..going for walks, wacking the dog..back to his normal behaviour! We probably should end this conversation, its getting a bit long. If you know how to do it, please do so. And thank you again for all your help, advice and support.

 

I post over on the Lantus forum too. And it’s good for others to have input as well.
If you increase from 1.5 units after the 7 days you should only go up to 1.75 units. We increase in 0.25 unit increments as it is the safest way to do it. You would be amazed the difference 0.25 units makes especially when you are getting close to the best dose.
Huey is doing well for a newly diagnosed kitty.
Think about starting a new post in the Lantus forum. If you don’t like it you can always come back to the main forum.
To do that just go to that page and click on the start new thread

 

Just wanted to say that you're doing great. It may take a month or more to get to the correct dose, but if you go slow with gradual increases, then its a pretty safe process and you don't need to worry so much (I know its all scary at first!) His spreadsheet so far looks pretty normal for a newly diagnosed cat who is getting used to insulin and isn't yet at the right dose. So I'll say it again: You're doing great!

Hypos are sudden and life threatening and can come on with no warning beforehand. So that's the big danger we want to avoid. The other one is DKA, which often happens with very high numbers and/or when kitty is refusing to eat but still getting insulin.

High numbers and complications thereof generally cause problems more gradually and will have clinical signs you can watch for (normal signs of trouble such as lethargy, hiding, failing to eat/drink/groom/use litter box appropriately, limping, struggling to climb.) As long as he looks well and is behaving as if he feels ok, you can keep an eye on him with a few tests a day and monitoring how much he eats. And if you have to miss a test or injection for whatever reason, its not ideal for the goal of regulating him, but he won't be in imminent danger.

Other advice I have for you is to see who in your network could help you by learning to give injections and tests. You may not need them now but its great to have someone trained up who your cat trusts, before you need them. Your vet office may have a tech/nurse/nursing student who is willing to catsit to earn a little extra money and (will know what to do and what symptoms to look out for as well.) Family members and friends can also be taught to give injections and possibly tests as well.

Life will be MUCH easier once he is regulated.

Best of luck to you.

 

Hi Linda
How are things going?
Can you update your SS with the missing BSLs and the doses given please ? Thanks
Bron

 

hi, I have updated..we got a blue today..which I wonder about, as Huey is not hungry at all, ..but this afternoon, he just had a little bbq chicken..some days when he was not sick, he wasn't hungry either..and I know for sure he is not getting any food at the neighbours. So again, wait and see...wait and see...nothing unusual about his behaviour - a bit quiet, but it is so hot today..

 

Hi Linda,
Very nice to see the 10.4 today. That’s progress. Why did you wonder about it?
What day are you going to do the curve before you increase?
When you do increase, please think about only increasing 0.25 units as he has got a 10.4 on this dose, so it’s good to hasten slowly. I notice you haven’t been getting many night time BSLs. Kitties often drop lower at night so it is a really good idea to at least get a before bed test to check he is not dropping too low.
I think his SS looks pretty good for a newly diagnosed FD kitty

ETA. Looking at the SS I can see you haven’t always got a Preshot test. Please ALWAYS get a before shot test to see the number is high enough to shoot. Someone last week inadvertently forgot and her kitty was dangerously low a couple of hours later.

 

I know I should, but some days ( like the other day) I am just so tired, I still do odds and ends of work and I've a troublesome ex husband and oh boy 31 years of his shite, ( we were only married for 4 years we share a son, so its impossible to be totally done and dusted with them ..) and if kitty wont co-operate and hand over some blood..I give up, say my prayers and leave it to whatever swirls around that we cant understand or explain...however, all things are here to teach us and to learn from and one path leads to another..and the rotten path led to hubby number 2 who is a good man. And of course kitty kat and dogalogs who have been put into my care....I'll see about another reading tonight..especially as Huey has not eaten much today..that is what I am wondering about..the why loss of appetite?? But tomorrow is another day..and we will see how it goes. Bye for now, and good night

 

I’m sorry you have some family issues. They can be hard.
But I can’t stress enough to always test before giving insulin particularly as you increase the dose and Huey’s BSL comes down closer to normal. Cats don’t usually show ANY signs of low blood sugars until they are dangerously low. Once they are showing signs of a hypo they are in big trouble.
Do you have some higher carb food and honey in case of low BSLs ? Canned gravy foods are best as dry food takes too long to be absorbed. Some of the fancy feast ones with rice in them are higher carb.
Have you tested for ketones in the urine in the last few days? I’d try and get a test in if you can given his appetite is s bit off.
Bron

 

I haven't done the ketone test..I'll see if I can do that tomorrow. He usually goes outside into his cat run but I will fix up his litter box and see if he will co-operate. Probably lock him inside until he does the deed. Good night,sleep tight.

 

ps...if we do change his insulin, I will definitely be back on regular monitoring until we see how it is going..and the pre shot tests..he was Ok tonight, and it has gone up a bit, as it usually does at the +3 mark. I have to go to bed now, working early tomorrow, so we will see what we see in the morning.

 

pps..all the reading says basically this " We have not seen ketosis in cats on low carbo, high protein diets. This is the normal diet of the cat and its metabolic machinery is especially adapted to such a diet as the normal order of things, in times of feast as well as famine...Huey is eating a very low carbohydrate and high protein diet..no dried food at all. If it's his pancreas that is playing up, that raises a whole lot of other issues..however, apart from lack of apetite, he does not have loose stools, no vomiting or other stuff like that that I researched. i just hope that he feels better and is hungry tomorrow..I just know this will play on my mind tonight. and I have to get up early, so I have to go to bed!!