Okay Here We Go

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by G & I, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    I performed my first glucose test at 0930 this morning and got a reading of 708. I have (at 0942) given my first home injection of ProZinc at 0.50 unit as prescribed by the vet. I then fed Goma 1/4 can of Hill's prescription diet (m/d). I am holding my breath now. Is there anything else I can do? What should I be looking for? I plan to test again in 2 hours or should I test sooner? To be honest a bit worried at this moment.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
    Reason for edit: Corrected food name
  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Would you consider checking out the instructions on how to set up the spreadsheet we use here so you can log all your data as you get it? We can tell at a glance of the spreadsheet what's going on.
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
    There are [eople on here who can help with it if necessary.

    To clarify: the sequence is 1. test BG 2. feed kitty 3. give insulin. All this can happen within 15 - 30 minutes. You want to feed before insulin so you don't run into the problem of shooting and then kitty won't eat. No food = no insulin.

    Try testing again around 4 to 6 hours after the insulin shot to see if the dose is lowering BG. If you feel ambitious you can try testing at 2, 4, 6 and 8 hours after the insulin shot. That high reading of 708 might be from getting only one shot a day. It's also possible that 0.5 unit is too low a dose but you need test data to assess it.
     
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  3. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    Congrats on taking the first steps. Those first tests and injections can be very challenging. Always remember you are helping your kitteh.

    Above 700 is very high. Agree with Kris' advice on followups. Over the next few days, as you dose, you will be able to do minor increases every 6-7 doses. The key is to get the BG down over time, and to get nadirs (mid-point) in the 80-120 range.
     
  4. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    Good job on doing your first test!
     
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  5. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Do you mean M/D or W/D?
     
  6. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

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    Dec 12, 2016
    Whoop Whoop! You are now doing the FD dance!
     
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  7. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    My most humble apologies - I meant m/d
     
  8. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 3, 2016
    That was a high number but never, ever get freaked about a high number and in a panic give too much insulin. There's no clever way to say better too high than too low but it's true. We're going to work this through together. How was it waving that pointy thing around the first time and then actually stabbing a cat? We've all been there, every one of us. You're really in the club now.
     
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  9. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    Thank you for the response and advice. I have created the spreadsheet and entered data thus far. I will be doing an additional reading shortly. Being my first time I had hoped to test every two hours. Is 2, 4, 6, 8 enough, that is should I see it bottom out somewhere along those times? I had fed her about 3 hours before the test.
     
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  10. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    ProZinc’s peak action should happen in the 4 to 6 or 7 hours after injection. That’s when the BG should be lowest. You should capture it with the 2/4/6/8 schedule. Hurray for the spreadsheet!
     
  11. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    No apologies needed! There's just a difference between the two. M/D is 13% carbs, where the W/D is 25%...both are too high for a diabetic cat though.

    We try to keep it to under 10% carbs. Just like with human diabetics, the first thing to do is reduce the carbs. Otherwise it's like continuing to pour gas on a fire and wondering why it won't go out, even though you're putting water (insulin) on it!

    There's absolutely nothing special about the "prescription" foods other than the price and if you look at the ingredients, they're no better than foods you can get at your local grocery store.

    Most of us feed plain old Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies pates or 9-Lives ground...all under 10% carbs and a lot more affordable than anything made by Hills!

    There was actually a class action lawsuit against Hills (and the other "prescription" food manufactures) filed not too long ago.....basically due to false advertising.
     
  12. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    Congrats on starting the spreadsheet. Not only will it help us. But you can also historically watch progress. Cats can vary in their responsiveness to insulin over time.

    Also I like to share it with my vet. I found that it does not always print well because of the colors. So I often copy it from google sheets and put it into excel. Not sure why excel clears up the numbers. ...I wasn't clear here. The colors wash out over the BG values.
     
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  13. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    Thanks for the reassuring words. Wasn't very confident about that first go around at home. BG testing will continue two more times. Just completed the second after injection.
     
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  14. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    Thanks, I will probably share it with my vet but I am feeling that he will still fight me over the regimen I am now starting with two injections daily and giving food when she wants (minus the 2 hour pre injection bg test window). I am having a hard time getting used to this idea because of what he has been telling me but this makes much more sense and I am certain Goma is happier for it as she asked me to tell everyone Thank You....
    Still not seeing numbers that I was hoping to see. 4 hour post injection reflected only a 131 point drop from the pre-injection number as reflected on the spreadsheet. Not sure what I expected. Perhaps the fact she is now eating regularly and the insulin is old...
     
  15. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    The vast majority of people/cat pairs are doing the routine we suggest on this forum:
    1) 2x daily injections
    > because insulin gets used up in the body mostly after 12 hours
    2) pre-tests, and nadir tests
    > so you are knowledgeable about the insulin effects
    3) no food for 2 hours prior to testing
    > so food doesn't influence the reading
    4) healthy high protein, low carb wet food without grains (corn, etc)
    > so the kitteh is getting proper nutrition and not grain sugar
    5) prep kit and knowledge about hypos
    > so you can treat one when it happens

    All of these items make common sense. If vets provide contrary advice, they also need to rationalize their advice.

    So far (one day), goma's spreadsheet looks high. If you have updated numbers, it would be great if you type them in. A 130 point drop is significant. But for Goma to get healthier, we need to get the kitteh out of those super high numbers. The high BG numbers cause glucose toxicity to the whole body, including organs. Neuropathy is caused from the high numbers as well.
     
  16. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    Thanks. There are no other numbers at this time . I will go back and put numbers the Vet had taken but be advised, those are all after not allowing Goma to eat before or for 3 hours after the injection which is why I want to keep her home and do this myself with the assistance of this group. Last night I failed to inject the insulin properly. Goma is skin and bones at this time and I m having a very hard time getting the needle in. I had to stop since I think you can’t inject again if you failed.

    I am doing poorly at this and fear for Goma. Next injection will be in about 2 hours. Am feeding her now.

    Thanks for the list of actions . I sincerely want to do this.
     
  17. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

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    Mar 19, 2016
    You're doing great! There is so much to take in at first, but you are tackling this task and doing everything you can to get Goma on track. It does take time.
     
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  18. Tanya and Ducia

    Tanya and Ducia Well-Known Member

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    Feb 25, 2017
    Hi there,

    we have another member from Japan (not Okinawa thou) but I haven't seen her around for a while now..

    I am going to tag her and ask if she had found any good canned low carbs diabetic friendly food which is sold in Japan, have you Kaori?

    @Kaori &Utyun
     
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  19. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    Thanks so much that would be very helpful. I advised the vet last night that Hills m/d was too high in carbs for a diabetic cat but I still don’t know what options I have other then making my own
     
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  20. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Purina Mon Petit looks like it's a lot like Fancy Feast.....the small cans look good but since I can't read Japanese, there's no way I can translate the ingredients. The two circled look like they might be the exact same thing as FF ......the one at the bottom I really have no idea about, but if you can find these and check the ingredients, you might be good!
    upload_2017-12-10_18-58-5.png

    I think you might be able to find Wellness in Japan too but it would probably only be in "specialty" pet food stores.
     
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  21. Kaori &Utyun

    Kaori &Utyun Member

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    Mar 9, 2017
    Hi Tanya & scs islander
    I just logged in and found out tagging.
    I'm sorry for the late reply!

    Low carbohydrate cat cans sold in Japan are limited
    Nature's Variety, Nature's Logic, ziwipeak and so on.
    As ziwipeak changed its ingredients, what about current carbohydrates?
    I think that Avoderm Chicken can and Go! Turkey can was 10%.
    In Japan there is PURINA MonPetit instead of Fancy Feast
    When I contacted the company before, I was told that it is not the same ingredient as Fancy Feast.

    I hope Goma can meet with a good food.
     
  22. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 3, 2016
    Nice to know we're back to "Around the world, FDMB is there for you." We recently lost our little guy in Hong Kong but then someone from New Zealand joined the club.
     
  23. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    Thank you for the information. I am currently feeding another of my cats Purina Mon Petit. While there are many varieties, the pate is what she prefers. There is no clear indication on the can concerning carbohydrates. When you contacted the company were they able to tell you the carbohydrate levels? Also what stores carry Avoderm Chicken and Go! Turkey - 10% is better than the 13% but I know I still need to go lower. I am hoping the Mon Petit is going to do it. And where can I find Nature's Variety etc. Are they in specialty stores in Japan?

    Appreciate you stepping in on this.
     
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  24. Kaori &Utyun

    Kaori &Utyun Member

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    Mar 9, 2017
    When I asked, Purina Mon Petit said that he did not know the amount of carbohydrates.
    I am sorry that I can not help you.
    Natures' variety variety is http://www.axiscoltd.com/
    https://www.rakuten.co.jp/56nyan/
    https://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/chanet/ Here Mon Petit is also on sale.
     
  25. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
  26. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    Me neither . It's a scary moment but you are in the right place.
    Hope you manage to find some suitable canned food . Just makes things easier whilst trying to adjust the diet away from the dry renal and the carbs.

    Well done you. Like a duck to water.
     
  27. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    To share with a vet, or anybody else, you can also simply copy the sharing link for the spreadsheet and put it in an e-mail. Like that they always have access to the up-to-date version if they feel like peaking in over lunch break or between surgeries! ;-)
     
  28. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Is there any nutritional information on the can? Like Protein, Fat, Fiber, Moisture and Ash?

    How about ingredients?
     
  29. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    With all those numbers still in the black I think you need to raise your dose. If it were my cat I'd do 2 units twice a day and see what happens.
     
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  30. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    Agree with Janet. Increase the dose to 2.0 units. Monitor closely. Then every 7 doses, so another increase. Those high black numbers are very unhealthy for your kitteh.
     
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  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    You've said that you don't want to raise the dose until you get a new vial of Lantus. I worry that leaving Goma in those high numbers increases the risk of her developing ketones. I'd boost her dose ASAP even if this ProZinc isn't completely potent. A jump to 2 units twice a day isn't unreasonable in this situation.
     
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  32. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    All the can states is: More than 12% protein; more than 2% fat; less than 1 % fiber; less than 4% crude ash; less than 80% water; pork, seafood (sardines, white fish, tuna). This is the Mon Petit that I have been feeding to an older cat.
     
  33. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    I too am worried about the ketones. I have already injected 1.00 unit this morning. I was actually beginning to see better numbers at the lower dose and this is why I am concerned with the vial I am using. If there is, in fact something wrong, I am worried that I am injecting a higher amount of what ever it is. If I do increase the dosage, what is the protocol to reduce again whenever the time may come? I think I mentioned somewhere that I had a urine test completed on Wednesday the 13th of December and there were no ketones at that time. How long would it take them to appear? She is having fluid therapy once a day and may go ahead and have another urine test made if possible this morning. As a side note, she was on a pain killer that was stopped yesterday and I was given antinol and glucosamine to control the pain. I started to give this to Goma than realized that glucosamine has a glucose component I believe and when I did a quick research found that it could raise the glucose level. So I did not give her. Does anyone have a suggestion on an effective substitute for pain killer meds that are not too hard on her body?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
    Reason for edit: Added information about ketone test on 12/13.
  34. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Looks like that's about the same thing as Fancy Feast Classics (Pates)

    The numbers aren't exact, but they're almost the same as the Fancy Feasts that a lot of us use.

    Looks like you have a winner!!!!

    This is the nutritional breakdown of Fancy Feast Ocean Whitefish and Tuna
    upload_2017-12-15_20-2-20.png
     
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  35. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Worst case is that the insulin has lost potency rather than becoming chemically degraded in a way that makes it toxic. The risk to Goma at this point is too low a dose of insulin.

    What is the cause of her pain? Depending on the cause, one commonly used pain med is buprenorphine. Most kitties tolerate it at an appropriate dose and it's effective. What does she receive fluids for?

    Ketones can appear quickly. I believe you said you're waiting on the delivery of urine ketone test strips. They should be available in a human pharmacy where diabetes supplies are kept. The sooner you can begin testing for them at home the better.

    Re human pharmacy: it would be worth checking to see if they have the human insulin Lantus (glargine is the generic name) available. Ask if you need a prescription from your vet to get it. This might be a way of getting insulin that works into Goma sooner than later.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  36. G & I

    G & I Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    It also says made in the United States so this is hopefully the same thing with a different name. Just went out and bought all the store had.
     

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