Quintus: wobbly legs

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Stephanie & Quintus, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    So, Quintus clearly has lost a lot of muscle mass around his hind legs. His elbows have had horrendous arthritis for years now. Every now and again one of his front paws will wobble when he stands up. I thought it was arthritis. Is it a consequence of diabetes?
     
  2. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    Diabetic neuropathy can cause weakness of the limbs. Improving regulation plus B12 methylcobalamin supplementation can both help improve the condition. With CKD in play I recommend you check out the notes on B vitamin supplementation on Tanya's Site; they advocate a conservative approach to dosing of that particular supplement.


    Mogs
    .
     
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  3. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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    Sep 8, 2017
    With B12 Silver was back up and running in ten days. It works. It’s called Zobaline in the US. Here in Canada I just got done at the local pharmacy.
     
  4. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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  5. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Definitely get the zobaline. If you think there is also arthritis then adequan shots are the way to go.
     
  6. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Spent the day (literally) reading up on all this, very interesting! Zobaline doesn't exist here. All I can find is human-packaged methylcobalamin for vegans...

    Any Europeans who managed to lay their hands on Zobaline, by any chance?
     
  7. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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    It doesnt have to be zobaline. You dont get it in Canada either. I just got plain ordinary B12 - you just have to make sure that it is the methylcobalamin kind and not cyanocobalamin. Most pharmacies will carry it. Check it has no added sugar and you will be fine. Human packaged is fine - just check the sugar content.
     
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  8. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Just get the human one. Capsules are easier as you can just open them and sprinkle it on.
     
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  9. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    The human ones have stuff in them that I do not know for sure are safe for cats, and I'm not sure how to check. Also, don't have the folic acid, how important is that?
     
  10. Tanya and Ducia

    Tanya and Ducia Well-Known Member

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    Feb 25, 2017
    Have you seen THIS post, Stephanie?

    Or, if the UK is still a part of EU then maybe THIS post can help?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  11. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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    This what I use.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I used human b12 methylcobalamin made by vitacost. I open one for the cats and then pop one myself. Lol
     
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  13. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    it's not the methylcobalamin I'm worried about, that's clearly the same. it's the other stuff they put in the capsule with it.
     
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  14. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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    What are the extra ingredients? Did you read the ingredients of what I use? Silver has come to no harm. I think you are worrying unnecessarily. Keep away from sugar and ensure it’s methyl and you should be ok. Get the same as what I use if you’re unsure.
     
  15. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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  16. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    @Critter Mom oh, maybe I should do that. It'll get stuck with all the xmas postage though, I bet. Bold question but do you need all three of your bottles? I'd kind of assumed they wouldn't ship to CH (always assume that) but I'm probably wrong. Thanks!
     
  17. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    I ordered from them a number of times. They're quite speedy with the shipping generally but I don't know how Christmas time might affect delivery.

    Re the multi-bottle orders, I worked on the principal that it was needed (and I'd sooner have too much of it to hand than run out).


    Mogs
    .
     
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  18. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    So, question. How do we arrive at the 3mg/day dose? Anybody know where it comes from and what it's based on? It's higher than what seems to be given humans, and cats are 1/10th or less of our weight...
     
  19. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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    That's not a big issue - my cat gets one pill a day and its a 1000 mcg dose - what he doesn't need is excreted out as its water soluble. Think we can get too hung up on the details. First time around my boy couldn't even stand up to eat and I had to prop the bowl up for him. 10 days after me giving him ordinary, pharmacy bought B12, he was running about like a kitten again. This time around, I didn't hesitate and the last three months I've given it to him daily. No wobbly legs at all and not come to any harm despite the extra ingredients listed (not sugar). I used to work for a pharmaceutical company so I know a lot of the names sound long and scary but they are not harmful. NOT giving it to him is more harmful to him. Zobaline not available in this country. Shipping exorbitantly expensive from the USA and I did what was needed for my cat.
     
  20. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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    If you're worried, cut the pill in half.
     
  21. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Precisely: when a cat has kidney failure you want to avoid making those kidneys work too hard. I'm not worried about "other ingredients" or anything (I studied chemistry for three years, even if I ended up failing). I'm just wondering about the rationale for the dose so that I have arguments to back up my decisions when discussing with other people who might be new to the idea.
     
  22. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I've read here that dosing B12 at this level isn't recommended for kitties with CKD. You could try looking at human methycobalamin supplements in a pharmacy to find one with no added sugars. They usually come in different dose levels like 250 mcg or 1000 mcg.
     
  23. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    So, this is going to contradict what I just said, but most of what I read yesterday (I spent my day figuring out vitamin B12!) is that cyanocobalamin is tough on the kidneys because they need to get rid of the CN (which is detached from the cyanocobalamin to transform it into methylcobalamin which is biologically available). So maybe methylcobalamin isn't a big issue for kidneys. (thinking out loud)
    Also, the study I saw regarding B12 and kidney damage involved taking it for years, not a few weeks or months, and I think it was cyanocobalamin.
     
  24. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    All I've read here is that methylcobalamin is preferred but I haven't personally researched why. The reason you found for not using the cyanocobalamin sounds good to me. It's still said here on FDMB to use methyl B12 with caution in CKD kitties. I don't know what the research says on that though.
     
  25. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    So, having dug into this, vitamin B12 is actually a family of molecules (cobalamin): there is cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and yet another one with a complicated name. What changes is the 6th group that is attached to the cobalt in the molecule. So in cyanocobalamin it's a cyanide group, methylcobalamin it's methyle, etc.

    Our body's metabolism uses methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.

    So why cyanocobalamin? Because that is how we manage to synthesize it. Historically, the product synthesized is hydroxycobalamin. And when that goes through activated charcoal (for purification I think) the HO group gets replaced by the CN. It's not a huge issue per se, because once we get it in our systems, the CN group is separated from the molecule and we transform it into methylcobalamine. Our kidneys take care of the tiny amount of CN to get rid of it.

    It's "recently" become easier to synthesize methylcobalamin directly, which is the bioavailable form. And there seems to be some side-effects in using the CN form. So "everybody" is moving towards methylcobalamin rather than cyanocobalamin.

    See what my saturday was like? At least now I know this :)
    The Wikipedia page for Vit B12 is quite a good synthesis.
     
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  26. Juliet

    Juliet Well-Known Member

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    Yup that’s what I said and what I use. Works well on Silver but he doesn’t have CKD.
     
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  27. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 3, 2016
    If, and this is a big if, the pain gets really bad just remember Noah and transdermal BUPE. I completely agree that prevention and then maintenance are far better than getting a cat doped up to make the pain go away. An cat's accelerated life span and their inability to talk can make pain treatment hard and arthritis hurts more than you might think. Because Noah gets transdermal BUPE he has no GI issues and it doesn't affect his numbers. Sorry, that's for later. I have a real aversion to pain so I just wanted you to remember that for later. Much later I hope.
     
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  28. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Oct 30, 2017
    The methylcobalamin b12 capsules from Vita cost have 4 ingredients only. The folic acid improves absorption. I make a week's worth by opening the capsules into a small Tupperware and adding crushed folic. The zobaline pills are already combo. Either way it's crush and sprinkle. Tanya recommends a smaller dose for ckd kitties, but not against using. But don't forget, it's also kitties bg numbers coming in line that improves the neuropathy. Good luck whichever route you go! :bighug:
     
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  29. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 3, 2016
    I need to understand this a little better. Is neuropathy the same (or just generally the same) as neuropathic pain, specifically in humans? I have this, it's awful and I don't want my cats going through that. Sorry everyone, if this is a question for another day just let it go.
     
  30. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    I haven't researched this precisely (I researched "what to do about it") but I think it's mainly lack of control/strength and that pain is not necessarily there.

    "Neuropathy" is going to mean there is something going on with the nerves, but that doesn't necessarily mean pain. As I understand it neuropathic pain would be a subset of neuropathy.
     
  31. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 3, 2016
    Chronic nerve pain is a mystery to neurologists too. They know it's there and what to do but beyond that is nothing. Neuropathic pain like phantom leg syndrome is a perfect example. If you want to research something Stephanie look into Trigeminal neuralgia, it's beyond creepy pain wise and hard to diagnose. :blackeye:
     
  32. Stephanie & Quintus

    Stephanie & Quintus Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2017
    I'll keep that in mind but I think I'm all out-researched for the week, I need to put my work cap back on!
     
  33. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    I cured Leo of his neuropathy. But when his condition was real bad, he was real touchy on the back of his legs. My vet told me the neuropathy can cause bad nerve tingling and sensitivity.

    As others have said, the key to recovery is B12 and glucose regulation. Leo almost couldn't walk. Now he is pretty much like a normal cat, well, except he is sweeter than most cats :D
     
  34. PussCatPrince

    PussCatPrince Well-Known Member

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    Nov 25, 2017
    'Course he is.....except Ty .

    Good to know about the tingling. I mentioned to our vet that when Ty takes his short trips down/up the garden, he stops every few steps to lick a paw as thugh something was agitating there. Vet silently shrugged inside , had no thoughts on that at all & looked at me for the eccentric I am.
    I think you @JeffJ just explained it. Thank you.
     
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