? Tiger's TID(3x a day) Vetsulin Ride

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man, Mar 27, 2020.

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  1. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Previous thread, please take a look see http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/tigers-wild-ride-on-insulin-train.227475/#post-2548835
    Today is the first day we are doing the TID. His daily is 14u's(Vetsulin) which breaks down to 3.5u's every 8hrs. First Reading AMPS 213+11, of course he just had to drive me crazy and be lower than usual. GRRRR. I know he will go up and up. Should I wait to do the TID and not shoot this morning???? Or do another reading after he eats??? And go from there.
     
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  2. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

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    hang in there ! someone will be here soon
     
  3. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    @Deb & Wink said to go ahead and start the TID today. Shoot the 3.5. Sooooo EVERYBODY hang on for his ride.
     
  4. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

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    oi well glad you heard from her I cant give dosing advice. whew
     
  5. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Why is the 213 AMPS colored black? It should be yellow.

    270 at +1. Probably higher from the food spike.
     
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  6. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Ummm idk why black I'll fix it and ya I kinda figured the food made it go up
     
  7. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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  8. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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  9. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    You made it through another day Jacque.
    That sob story I told you the other day, this was why I did it.
    009_nigel.JPG noah_fridge01.JPG
     
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  10. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I'd really like to see you go back to ProZinc every 12 hours.....something has changed with Tiger and he may respond a lot better now.

    79 is a little low when you're using Vetsulin. If you haven't already done it, I'd feed him a teaspoon or 2 of low carb food and test again soon
     
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  11. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    He nibbled on 5 friskie's treats and had about 10 Merricks dry. Yes, that's what I was thinking too. He threw a low number one other time back on the 15th and then went back up
     
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  12. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Maybe it was the ff. I usually give him friskies for breakfast and dinner, but I figured he might not be hungry enough for a can of that.
     
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  13. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    An hour later he's gone up he's at 130 just now
     
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  14. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    That could have been due to the kibble....it really is evil
     
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  15. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    just weird its random
     
  16. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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  17. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Bouncing from that low yesterday.

    That BG of 79 isn't as bad as you might think, but you definitely don't want it any lower than that. Around 90 or 100 for the nadir/low with Vetsulin would be better. That is what you are aiming for.

    With the TID dosing of Vetsulin, I'd make sure you gave Tiger a little snack of 1 teaspoon of wet food at +1 and +2, to help keep his BG numbers up a bit higher.
     
  18. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Well, had to put him back on the Lasix, congestion came back. Also Doc said he has to take Pred 5mg too. I hate Pred it can damage organs if taken long term. And someone said in one of my threads that it may cause his glucose to go up.
     
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  19. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Here's what I'm thinking. Maybe I should give him the Pred and the Lasix on the +4, because that is usually when he will start to go low..reckon thats when the insulin kicks in. @Deb & Wink whatcha think?
     
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  20. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    If he needs medications to help with other conditions, such as the Pred and the lasix, you adjust the insulin dose around those other very necessary medications.

    Then you have to give Tiger the lasix. Controlling the congestion is more important right now than the diabetes. His breathing needs "supersedes", "trumps", is more important than the blood sugar being higher.
    The insulin probably kicks in around +2, but it takes until +4 to bring Tiger's BG's to their nadir, or close to the nadir. No idea when giving the lasix and the pred would be more helpful. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
    Reason for edit: corrected spelling of supersedes
  21. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    For sure..Maybe it's a good think we are doing the TID especially since I'm adding Pred
     
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  22. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Have to go run a few errands, so I won't be here for a few hours.
     
  23. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    @Wendy&Neko whatcha think?
     
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  24. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    You've heard ECID before. And that seems it's also true for cats and how they respond to prednisolone. Some take longer than others before it impacts the blood sugar. Looks like it's experiment time with Tigger. I don't think it's immediate after giving though. Remind me again what the pred is for? My girl was only ever on budesonide and it didn't impact her blood sugar. Neither did Lasix.

    As for TID dosing, did you get any tests in the third cycle last night? If you can only test two out of three cycles, TID might not be the answer.
     
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  25. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    The pred is to help with his breathing. He sometimes struggles because of the fluid. Xray showed he had a small amount of fluid buildup near his chest cavity. As far as a the third cycle, no I didn't get a reading. Didn't think it was necessary since his PMPS was so high 457.
     
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  26. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    And if he was on his original BID I would have for sure tested him.
     
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  27. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Even more important when doing TID dosing, to test in each cycle.
     
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  28. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    So what you are saying every 4 hrs forever?. When I was doing Bid I tested every 2hrs forever. I was told is MORE important when he was Bid and before..when we didn't know even the slightest what his nadir was.

    Also told that when TID doesn't need to be tested as much since we know that her usually goes high at the +8-9. I'm donking myself in the head. Getting frustrated....I thought we have a nadir for Tiger..the glucose drops at +4 to +6 range.
     
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  29. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I was also told that I test waaaaay too much since we have a somewhat nadir figured out.
     
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  30. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I guess what some of you are saying is that I can never sleep again as long as Tiger is alive?
     
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  31. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I follow other peoples posts and they don't get in trouble for not testing every 4 hrs. I don't understand why I'm in trouble.
     
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  32. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    You had a nadir for the BID dosing with Vetsulin.
    Now you are giving insulin more frequently, and that nadir can change. It may stay the same, or it may not.
    You are not in trouble. You need to figure out what is best for you and Tiger going forward.
    We are trying really hard to help, and keep you sane, and Tiger safe.

    No, Jacque you have to sleep. But each dosing cycle does need a test, to be safe. At least according to "best practices."

    It's why TID dosing is not recommended very often. It's hell on the caregiver. Even if it does help Tiger to have lower BG levels and feel better.

    Who told you that you are testing "way too much"? Facebook someone? Your vet?

    p.s. Wish you had kept the link to the old BID dosing SS in your signature. You can have 2 spreadsheets in the signature.

    There was one day, that Tiger had a high pre-shot and he dropped to the greens. Can't remember which day that was. That is where the concern and worry are coming from, from us here.
     
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  33. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    The link is still there in the signature for his old ss
     
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  34. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    There has been 2x that he was in the dark green...the week of the 15th. After that he never went that low again until yesterday.
     
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  35. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    My bad. I missed the first SS link. Sorry.

    Jacque, you have to find a balance in caring for Tiger that is going to work for YOU.
    You also have Jazz Man's diabetes to take care of plus 18 other cats.
    You have a life and responsibilities that we know something about, but we would never know everything. Nor would you want us to.

    If something we suggest does not work, push back, push back as hard and as often as you need to.
     
  36. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Thanks..I was just fixin to leave the message board. I want your help. I need your help. I'm trying as hard as I can. To do what is right for Tiger and me. But getting up every 2hrs when I was shooting 2x a day was wearing me down..physically and mentally. And now that I'm shooting 3x a day I still have to check him every 4hrs and more often if he is real low so he doesn't die. And when he is high I have to monitor so he doesn't drop too fast and go too low.
     
  37. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    You got our help Jacque. You've also got some really quick fingers. With those fast responses, I couldn't keep up with them. Speedy replies is not so easy for me these days, with arthritis in my fingers.

    So how can we make this better and more workable for you Jacque?
    What can we do so you are NOT so blasted exhausted and ready to throw in the towel.
    I have a hoard of Dove chocolates I could share. A mix of milk and dark. Shall I send you my chocolate stash?
    Or do you want to be paid in cases of cat food?

    What would make this better?
     
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  38. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    It's been almost 2 months of: poking, shooting, switched insulins, adjusting dosages, med's, subq, thermometer up his butt, several doc visits. Everytime he sees me I can see it in his eyes..like he is saying "No More". Me and Tiger are exhausted. We can't keep going on like this. We both want stability, our lives back to somewhat normal.
    Tiger is taking so much of my time and energy. No, I will never ever give up on him.
    I have 6 other sickly furbabies that need daily meds and constant monitoring.
    In the last 6mos we've had 5 pass away and I haven't even had time to mourn them. Bitsy and One Eyed Jack almost took me out, my family had me on suicide watch..cried for days. Breaking my heart. 2 more we almost lost..I was able to revive them.
     
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  39. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    So sorry that you have arthritis. I hope it isn't too painful. I have Osteoporosis in my lower back on the left. Did a scan last year thats how I found out. I get occasional pain and my right leg will get achy feeling.
     
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  40. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    One sick cat that needs such intensive care as Tiger does is emotionally exhausting. Having 6 other sickly furbabies that need you has stretched you past your limits. Plus, you have 13 other cats that look to you for food and love and care.

    Is there a friend, neighbor, family that could help you take care of some of the feral outside cats? At least help you get food out for them. Is your husband able and willing to help you with some of the care for your cats?

    Is there a cat shelter near you, that has a volunteer willing to help with the outside feral cats, feeding them at least?

    Jacque, you are emotionally and physically exhausting yourself. You need to take care of YOU first. If you are overwhelmed, if you don't take care of YOU first, then you won't have the emotional energy to take care of your furbabies, or yourself. You're burning yourself out. I picture you sitting in a corner of a room, hands holding your head, sobbing and sobbing, because you have stretched yourself way beyond your physical and emotional limits.

    What do you do for fun? What do you do for relaxation? What do you do for you? What do you do in your "downtime?" (If there even is such a thing in your life right now.) Please, please, please, go do something for yourself for at least 5 minutes. Get out of your home. Clear your mind of everything else. Concentrate on you in the moment. Block out all other thoughts. Look at one object and think of only that one object.

    Sounds like you are clinging onto a cliff by your fingertips. Sounds like those fingertips are slipping, the drop is steep and you need to find a way off that cliff right now.

    Please, reach out for help. Reach out to 1-800-273-8255. You are not alone. You are not the only one that has needed to call this hotline.
     
  41. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Fun??? What's that? Yes, you have described me to a "T". I'm was lucky that I had and still have a support system. Family and my Doc. Med's help to take the edge off, but as you know I can't be on anything that will knock me out. My Doc called everyday when I was close to the edge. Had a bed available at our local nut house if I needed it. My son is a Zen Buddhist and he has taught me so much on mindfullness, breathing etc. When talk everyday. I'm ok for now, take everything day by day.
    My down time is around 2am, that's when I'm finally done with all the furbabies. Sleep around 3, if I'm lucky enough to shut my brain off. The hubby has been helping somewhat, but not much he can do. I tried teaching him how to medicate, give subq..he's too nervous and the cats know that. He has been stepping up on the love givin to them, and breaking up cat disagreements. The outside ferals don't take much work and some of my neighbors have started feeding too. Now, my inside semi-ferals(Rescues from Streator, IL) are the ones that need more attention. Still trying to gain there trust.
    Thank you so much for your understanding @Deb & Wink and being here for me.
     
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  42. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Can't turn my brain off at night a lot of times myself. Need meds to help me fall asleep. Doesn't keep me asleep, but it's better than laying there for 2 hours, trying to calm my mind without much success.

    Guided meditation does not always work for me, but I do use it sometimes.

    Pull on your support network. Pull hard. Lean on them. We all need to reach out for help.
     
  43. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    @Deb & Wink or @Chris & China (GA) well I just did his MIPS it's 125. Shoot 3.5 at +8 or wait and retest? I know he'll go up after the food kicks in.
     
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  44. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Wait and retest, in 20 minutes from the last test. You want to see a rising number.
    10 to 15% higher, not simply a few points.
     
  45. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I think it's time to put him back on the Prozinc. @Chris & China (GA) mentioned that maybe he's ready for it now. So, when and how would I switch him back?
     
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  46. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    ya fixin to retest right now..been about 1/2 an hour
     
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  47. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    158
     
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  48. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    That's a nice rising number.
    Ok, shoot and monitor him during this middle cycle.
    Don't think you've shot that low of a pre-shot with the TID.
    He may drop really low, and you'll have to feed him small amounts of food to keep the BG numbers up.

    p.s. Stack the 2 pre-shot tests in the same cell and manually color code the cell.
     
  49. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Your are correct, first time pre-shot this low with TID. And yeppers I'm on it. lol
     
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  50. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    You can do it in the morning if you want. Also, you don't need to test as much as every 2 hours forever. You actually don't have to test every 2 hours except for once a week for 12 hours (or every 3 hours for 18 hours)

    If you switch to ProZinc, you could test at both Pre-shots (of course) and then scatter tests at different points in the AM cycle....maybe 1 day do a +3 and +7, another day do a +4 and +8....of course there may be cycles where you NEED to test more if he's dropping too fast or dropping too low

    On the PM cycle, you need to at least get a "before bed" test (usually at least +2 or +3)….depending on what that result is will tell you if you need to plan on testing more later in the cycle or not.

    If you get tests "scattered around" on his spreadsheet, that will help you learn more about how Tiger is responding and you'll learn when it's most important to test (for him...ECID) If your "spidey sense" goes off, grab a test....pretty quickly you'll learn when those "spidey senses" really need to be listened to.
     
  51. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Since both Vetsulin and Prozinc are in-and-out insulins, the switch can be done pretty quickly.
    Like tomorrow.
    But if you decide to do that, you may want to skip the third dose of the Vetsulin tonight for this cycle of the TID dosing.
     
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  52. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    +1 237
     
  53. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    @Chris & China (GA) and/or @Deb & Wink yes, I'm gonna switch him. Just want to make sure I do the switch correctly. No shot of Vetsulin 3.5u's at 2am. What time and how many units of the Prozinc in the morning?
     
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  54. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I'll start new thread after this question is replied to.
     
  55. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    What time will work the best for YOU to shoot every 12 hours?

    I'm a little hesitant to suggest going straight back to 7U with as tired as you are, but if you think you can handle a little more testing for a few days, it might be best to see how he does on the previous dose. He may prove that he doesn't need that much anymore (we hope!)
     
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  56. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    11 works best for me. He was on 4u's BID of Prozinc. Start with that then?
     
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  57. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, let's try that and see how it goes. He may need to go up fairly quickly but hopefully something has happened that he'll respond better this time
     
  58. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    It can't look as bad as it did before. At least I hope not...Sooooo many black and reds. Hopefully the Vetsulin kicked him in the butt which is what Doc and @Deb & Wink were hoping for.
     
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  59. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I suggested the dose skip on the 3rd cycle tonight, so you could pick the best time that would work for you, to start Tiger back on the Prozinc.

    So pick the times. 11 am 11 pm it is.

    But the old dose of Prozinc is not the one you want to use. You want to take into consideration the increased doses you have done on the Vetsulin, over the last month. You were up to 14U of Vetsulin, split into 2 daily doses of 7U each. That was because the 5 and 6 units of Vetsulin was still keeping Tiger in high numbers.
    The Prozinc dose needs to be close to that same dose of Vetsulin, that you were doing before you split the dose into the TID dosing. So I'd suggest 6U to start for the Prozinc. You'll probably have to increase after that.
    The 4u of Prozinc was doing basically nothing for Tiger back in February.

    Why would you want to start back at a decreased dose that wasn't working for Tiger.
     
  60. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Yeah I was thinking that 4U's of Prozinc 2x a day would be too low.
    The total daily dose of Vetsulin is 10.5 right now, we started him lower when we started him on 3x a day.
    Should I start him on Prozinc 5.5U 2x a day then?That will make it 11U daily. I hate for him to go BLACK again if it's too low of a dose? How's that sound @Deb & Wink and @Chris & China (GA) ?
     
  61. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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  62. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Test again when it's been 30 or so minutes....84 is still a nice safe number but we don't want him to drop too low (under 50 on a human meter)
     
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  63. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    77 +20mins gave him some canned food. He doesn't show any signs that the lower numbers are bothering him. Getting annoyed with me though. 75 +30mins
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
    Reason for edit: added next bg reading
  64. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Those are great numbers. Hopefully he can spend some time there and give his pancreas some time to heal more
     
  65. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I hear that
     
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  66. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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