Tigger!

Is this the Main Health forum?

 

Yes!

ETA Here’s the link to your welcome post
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/tigger.211672/

 

Since you haven’t been able to get Tigger to eat the low carb wet, you can try Young Again dry. Keep trying to get him on the wet though, because it’s better for him.
https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/zero-mature-health.html
You can only get Young Again online, and some kitties get diarrhea in the beginning, so transition slowly and be sure to hometest his glucose since it’s lower in carbs than the MD.

OT Welcome, I see you’re in NOLA. I’m from there, but now live in MS.

 

This weekend will be a good time to get your spreadsheet up. It is really helpful when asking for dosing advice.

Our three kittehs are all over 10 years old, and they primarily eat Fancy Feast (FF). FF Chicken, followed by Turkey and Giblets - seems to be the most popular.

 

Hi everyone!

Tigger was diagnosed with diabetes in January. He has neurophthy and is getting b12 shots every week, but not much improvement. The urgent issue is I switched vets and we are on 5 units 2x a day. His numbers were doing pretty well then the last two weekend they skyrocketed! He told me to test him 5 hrs after he eats and gets his insuline. His number at noon today was 348. He did however have a snack not sure if this would affect it.

Anyway he is on Hills M/D dry he refuses to eat any wet food. I have tried every brand out there no luck.
So the vet wants to do a test at $1,000 to send his blood and urine off to michigan on Monday to find out what is going on. Does anyone know about this test. I was giving his insuline on the side but now giving it in between his shoulder blades and his mood and energy has improved dramatically. I was quite frankly shocked by the Glucose text a little while ago. He is a long orange tabby male almost 11. Eating about a cup a day of food. New Orleans, LA.

Tranquilization 49.57 Cheristin 19.89 Insulin-like growth hormone 149.18 overnight shipping 97.35, Urinalysis in clinic 90.19, Urine culture & MIC (sensitivity)296.19, Super chem/CBC/T4 295.19 I have tried everything as far as wet all brands, put on paw nose nothing I am desperate I am sure the dry is not helping!!

 

Here’s the link to your other thread
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/tigger.211703/

 

I have been trying to get this thread to the right place for advice since last night and have come to my daughters and she has been trying to help me.
Please advise

 

You’re in the right place. I just linked the thread you started this AM since you had a reply on it and I wasn’t sure you had seen it. It sounds like your vet wants to run the test for acromegaly as well as bloodwork and urinalysis. Why the tranquilizer?

 

Thanks! Tigger hates the vet & gets very upset. I was confused because I just did a urinalysis at my past vet and bloodwork. Chem 17. I switched vets because this new vet deals only with cats. I have to have faith in my vet and I called around after learning he is charging way more and putting charges and I feel repeating some tests ?
I called my last vet's tech this am and they said they do not do the culture test unless they see something in the urinalysis which they did not. Also I just had the test when Tig was diagnosed in Jan. He is also trying to charge Flea med and Tig is an inside cat. I was working on getting him off of the Hills dry but this vet said it will be fine ...
I do not think that is right ... His number on Thursday 5 hrs after insulin was 348. He is also not improving with his neuropat and I have been giving that to him for a month? I orderd the supplement Zobline today.

 

Are you testing him before food and insulin? If you’ve already had basic bloodwork and urinalysis I wouldn’t think you’d need it again unless this vet sees something that warrants it. Since Tigger won’t eat wet food, maybe try the Young Again dry. You can only buy it online. It can give sone kitties diarrhea at first, so transition slowly and be sure to test his glucose because the lower carbs could lower his blood sugar and he would then need a dose change. If you can set up our spreadsheet it will help us see what’s going on and if you need the acro test. If you need help setting it up just ask
Here’s the Young Again site
https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/p...MIm--suYb24AIVU7jACh1NoQ87EAAYASACEgLO3_D_BwE
And the spreadsheet
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
Don’t let that intimidate you, it’s very simple and we’ll help you figure it out!

 

If your recent bloodwork was less than 30 days ago, there's no reason a new vet can't go by those.

We don't usually recommend testing for acromegaly and IAA until they're above 6U (and they got to 6U using our dosing methods....most vets increase too much, too quickly)

Any vet can pull the blood for MSU.....I'd go to whoever charges the least to pull the blood for you to send to MSU. (but again, we don't even suggest those tests until they're above 6U)

As long as he's eating the high carb "prescription" food, his numbers are going to be higher than they'd be on a low carb canned diet. We know it can be terribly frustrating when they are hard core kibble addicts, but keep trying. Have you read Dr. Lisa's "Tips on Transitioning"?

While you're working on getting off the kibble, you could try one of the low carb dry foods like Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein chicken (available at Chewy.com) or Young Again Zero (available on their website) but we really don't recommend dry foods at all . Dr. Lisa has written up a good post about
Considering more than carb percentage . One thing about the Young Again....we've heard a lot of complaints here about it giving cats horrible diarrhea

It will REALLY help us to help you if you'll get our spreadsheet set up and input the numbers for at least the last few weeks. If you need help with it just holler! We can help you set it up!

 

Thankyou soo much! My daughter is trying to help me set it up but it says need a request sent which we did....I was going to do a curve tomm. I usually get the am number after he eats he is really hard to handle when its breakfast he is so hungry. He hates getting pricked and tries to hide so its a challange. I also got the 348 number after 5 hrs of insulin he does eat throughout the day. I give him his 1/2a cup 2x's a day but he doesnt eat it all at once so I put it away till he asks.. again. I bought some more wet food and freeze dried chicken as per suggestions from the link re Dr. Lisa we will see how that goes. My other cat likes the wet so maybe I should get her off completly what Tig(Hills) is eating too. So he needs to be weened off the Hills right? I thought so . This new vet said it was fine. I do not want to vet shop I moved because this is a cat practice and my old vet thought I was a little nuts testing at home and getting a baby scale. I will say however he wanted me to get him on wet.I do not know what to do this proposed high vet bill with these tests and adding flea meds knowing he is an indoor cat alerted me. I also was giving Tig his insulin by pulling his skin on side, I saw a you tube to do it inbetween his shoulders. I have seen improvement in mood but he cannot walk or jump that is getting worse despite the B12 shots .. We have been on 5 units 2 xs a day for about 4-5 weeks... I really appreciate all the advice, He had an appt Monday for these tests but I cancelled. I do not know what to do go to a new vet go back to our old vet ???? UGH!! This is hard enough to not have faith in a vet or am I crazy? Thank goodness I found this sight!!

 

2/7/19 every 2 hrs His insulin has always been 5 units 2xs a day
Rd 1 6am 366,8am 281 10 am 258 12 pm 164 2 pm 194 4pm 255 6 pm 277
2/15/19 7:25 am 245,10:11am 198,12:15 pm 214,13:30 250,15:55 290,18:00 339,
2/27 12:30 pm ( 5Hrs after insulin) 287, 15:15 336,( gave him a bunch of treats ) He kept running off)18:00 381
2/28 12:30 316, 16:00 279, 19:00 319, ( This is when the new vet says he is probably resistant to insuline and to do all these tests Mon
3/7 12:30 348
These are all of the tests I have done on Tigger so far.
I was going to do a curve tomm..
Should I do every 2 hrs again?

 

You're not crazy....the sad truth is that vets only get 5 hours of formal education on diabetes when they're in school....and that covers both dogs and cats!! Once they're in practice, they don't have the time to stay up to date on the latest treatments for every disease in every type of animal they see. That's one of the reasons this message board is so useful. We have the time to research as well as the real life 24/7 experience in what works and what doesn't!!

My own cat never went back to the vet after I got her script for Lantus. I chose to listen to the people here over the vet because everything that I was told here made a lot more sense than the garbage I was hearing from the vet. She went for dental treatments and a URI, but never for her diabetes. When I did take her in for something else, I'd just say "she's on X units of Lantus and her blood glucose runs between Y and Z" and that was usually the end of the conversation. If they did feel like they had to say something, I'd just nod my head, smile and say "I'll give that some thought" and then go right back here and do what the people here suggested!

You were started at 5U??

As far as testing, you need to test before every shot (to make sure he's high enough to give insulin at all) and then get at least 1 test mid-cycle on the AM cycle (like 5-7 hours after the shot) and at least a "before bed" test on the PM cycle. (usually 2-3 hours after the shot) Most cats go lower at night so it's really important to get those "before bed" tests to keep them safe and know if you need to get more tests in later at night.

It sounds like your vet doesn't know what they're doing. Just because they're a "cat only" vet doesn't change the lack of education they get.

If you'd like, I'd be happy to set your spreadsheet up for you. It really only takes me about 30 seconds once I have some information from you. Just click on my name and choose "start conversation" to send me a private message.

 

What do you mean high enough for insulin? What should that number be?
The pharmacy also told me that the insulin should be replaced if it is over 30 days old is that true?

 

My cat was hard to test first thing in the morning too, so I would give him a little breakfast, test within a few minutes then the rest of his breakfast. After awhile I could test without any food.

 

Once you have a little more experience and data, you shoot anything over 150.....if you get a number under 150, you should stall, don't feed and post for help. Test again in 20-30 minutes to see if the number climbs without the influence of food.

At some point, you'll need to decide which dosing method you want to use, Tight Regulation or Start Low, Go Slow (information in the sticky's at the top of the forum)

TR gives the best chance at remission and eventually, you learn to shoot anything over 50

 

NO!! If kept refrigerated and cared for properly, it should last you up to 4-6 months. The only reason they have to say it's only good for 28 days is because the manufacturer only asked for it to be tested for 28 days!!! (Big Pharma strikes again)

But a lot of us get our Lantus from Canada because it's so much cheaper than the US. Here's the Information on Buying insulin from Canada

 

Hi there! Not sure if this helps at all but a cat without diabetes can have blood sugar between 120-300 mg/dL. Meaning that when your cat was at 348 at noon it wasn't that far out of range. All cats blood sugar goes up after eating anything! Considering your cat is diabetic 348 is actually pretty good, of course, you should want them to be in the 100 range more than the higher side. But please don't panic and think "348 is the WORST". Though five hours after eating that is a bit high. Also your vet should be telling you what to dose. It doesn't sound like your vet knows what the heck they're talking about. Please refer to people on here as well as try to find a more experienced vet for your cats sake. My baby Charlie was diagnosed in January as well and they immediately gave us a course of action. We do two units twice a day after he eats. We don't change this unless the vet says to. Charlie's doing really great with this so far. Also the person who posted above me is one hundred percent right, with refrigeration insulin will last longer. Big Pharma wants to screw us over before you say "That's crazy talk!" Please keep in mind that I have type one diabetes and know a lot about insulin and how to manage everything.They want money. Simple as that, may need to look into buying from Canada for both mine and Charlie's needs!
As for testing them can be hard. Charlie's pretty chill about it. But it's so much easier if you have two people on hand. One to hold them and another to prick them. First you want to rub their ear lightly to warm it up, then prick the edge and lightly squeeze for blood. Make sure to wipe it off after to prevent drying. Also giving them one small treat or positive reassurance like kisses on the forehead makes them warm up to it faster!

 

Also! Try canned sardines. The ones that come in water, otherwise it's too much salt. Or giving him chicken breast instead of wet food. Tuna is okay too, but not too often. These are just some alternative snacks in the event that he won't eat any wet food. Charlie is personally really fond of any chicken flavor Fancy Feast. I don't know if you've tried it yet but it's definitely worth a shot. All three of my cats love it. Sometimes it's not even about the brand so much as the flavor, Charlie turns his nose up at almost any wet food that isn't chicken. So really try and go back to find out what Tigger really enjoys. Some brands also make "lickable treats" I have no idea what kind of carbs are in them but you could always test them out. My cat Atlas wouldn't eat wet food due to a mouth problem a while back and these helped out a lot. You could also try natural food as opposed to wet food. My grandmother feeds her cat raw duck and such. I know this sounds like a bunch of crazy nonsense and I'm sure you know what's best for your cat! I just want to throw out all these options in hopes that something helps!

 

China would go crazy for these lickable treats and it didn't do anything to her blood glucose numbers. They have lots of flavors too. I found mine at specialty pet food store nearby

 

Constance

I’ve gotten three emails from you on gmail regarding the spreadsheet and I responded with a very detailed answer this morning indicating I can do the SS for you if you like. I just need info and it was contained in that email. If you didn’t get it, please send me a private message here on the board by clicking on “Marje and Gracie” to the left and then “start a conversation” and I can take care of it for you.

Vet Test chem 17 is a blood panel which includes several blood chemistry panels. This might be what the lab your vet uses calls the test for blood chemistries. It includes the following:
Profile Information:
Albumin
Creatinine
Alkaline Phosphatase
Gamma-Glutamyltransferase (GGT)
ALT/SGPT
Glucose
AST/SGOT
Lactate Dehydrogenase (LD)
Bilirubin,
Total Phosphorus
BUN
Potassium
Calcium
Protein, Total
Chloride
Sodium
Cholesterol

The SuperChem CBC/T4 is the test I always get for my cats as it gives you all the blood chemistries as above like kidney and liver values, electrolytes, etc. The CBC is the complete blood count which includes white and red blood cell counts, hematocrit (for anemia detection), platelet count. The T4 is for the thyroid. Usually this type of panel should also include urinalysis if it is under the “senior panel” category.

Labs are just a snapshot at that moment in time. If he’s had labs in the last three months, I would get them all and furnish them to the new vet and ask her what she hopes to see in the new labs that the old ones are providing her. If the old labs don’t have a CBC, ask her what info the CBC will provide her that aids in his diabetes treatment (the answer is “none” but if she suspects chronic kidney disease, it would be helpful). If it’s been more than three months, it would be worthwhile.

Cheristin is for fleas. Does he have fleas?

I would not do a urine culture at home. Those home kits do not have the sensitivity that the labs would have and unless you suspect a urinary tract infection, I wouldn’t necessarily do it. Ask the vet why it’s necessary. Make her explain why she wants each test and what symptoms he has that the labs might address.

If he can’t walk or jump, he likely has diabetic neuropathy which is common in unregulated diabetes. You can give him Zobaline (click on the blue word for the link) to help with that and getting him regulated will also help. It takes time....as in months....to correct the neuropathy.

 

Thanks Guys! I just tries some fancy feast pate and dried chicken .. then wellnus lobster and chicken .. Dr. Lisa suggetsions he turned his nose! ugh!
my other cat gobbled it up...
He did like the sardines in the fussie cat wet for a couple of days .. then the new vet said not to let him eat anything but hills...
I am going to do the curve starting in the am The vet also has me giving the hills metobolic treats what do ya'll think my course of action should be with testing and my vet situation? Should I just go back to my original vet?

 

Have you tried just putting a very small amount of wet food mixed with his dry food? When he gets to eating that, gradually increase the wet and decrease the dry.

 

Yes! I tried that last night!

 

Thanks I will try sardines tomm...

 

Another thought- have you tried a raw diet? Katie was a dry food junkie and wouldn't touch canned food...at all. She took to the raw food immediately though. Try some raw chicken or turkey and see how he reacts.

 

Yes! I am going to try chicken tomm.. How much should he has if he eats it? Hes 18.5 lbs. Does chicken or turkey have all the nutrients he needs ?

 

Why did you switch vets?
For the wet food transition, have you tried some FortiFlora sprinkled on top? Warming the food in the microwave for a few seconds, then stirring it up to release the aroma?

 

No....plain chicken/turkey doesn't have everything he needs but there are pre-mixes you can use with your own raw protein like EZ Complete

 

Sounds good! I switched because my vet was acting like I was a bit crazy to have a gluecose tester and a baby scale... I did a consult with another vet who only takes care of cats. He seemed like he was on the same page. Until gauging me ...My original vet is old school
I just do not know what do to I do not want to be vet shopping ....

 

I will say that my original vet does not know about the testing in michigan for growth hormone but I guess I called a low cost vet today who does the tests but I do not want ot cheap out on Tig I just want him to be getting the right care from a vet? I have no clue what to do? My old vet did increase his insulin fairly quickly. He also stopped calling to check on Tigger . I have not heard anything from him in 4 weeks! He was checking in ..

 

I don’t think you need to worry about the growth hormone test just yet. Try to get him on a low carb food and get the spreadsheet set up so we can see if the test is necessary. Try the Young Again dry food and keep trying to get him on the wet. All I can say about a vet, is to try to find one that is willing to listen to you and work with you.

 

Thanks so much! One thing I did forget to mention is that Tigger has been dissappearing under the bed which he has never done before. The only time he has is when I am doing a curve. Which i have not done. Should I be worried ? He is very social

 

Don't worry about the extra testing yet. Since you've been feeding a high carb kibble and your vet(s) have increased you too much, too fast, it's entirely possible that if you get him onto a low carb diet, he won't need near as much insulin in the first place.

The Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein (chicken) is about 4.6% carbs and most cats tolerate it better than the Young Again

It's a much better choice than what you're currently feeding....at least until you can convince him to eat a canned or raw diet.

 

Thanks!! So do you think I should go back to my regular vet or stay with the cat vet? Also what about the B12 shots he has been getting weekly?
i am very worried that he is under the bed again tonight its not like him

 

I will order the food now

 

I really have no opinion on which vet you should use because as I said earlier, once I got my script for Lantus, I stopped taking China to the vet at all for her diabetes and just listened to the people here.

I'd go with the one you feel most comfortable with and can afford easiest. There's no law that says you have to tell your vet everything.....like the fact that you're home testing.

As for the B-12 shots, we generally see them used to help with appetite and general activity level. The form of B-12 in the shots isn't useful in the treatment of diabetic neuropathy. The methylcobalamin form of B-12 (like in the Zobaline) is the best for treatment of neuropathy. The shots are the cyanocobalamin form

 

By the way, we don’t typically suggest the tests from MSU for high doses until the dose is over 6u. We also don’t raise doses as quickly as it sounds like his was raised.

B12 shots will not address neuropathy. The type of B12 which helps neuropathy is methylcobalamin and most B12 shots are cyanocobalamin which is ineffective for neuropathy. In my post #5 above, I provided the link for one kind of oral methylcobalamin that works on neuropathy.

 

Thankyou so much! I ordered the Zobaline. I will stop the shots... Will save him the stress of going to the vet weekly!

 

Fortiflora Ordering now any thoughts on the brand? Does it matter?

 

Fortiflora is made by Purina and contains animal digest which is not good for cats. Some cats like the taste of it if you are using it only as a topper but I prefer higher quality products as toppers like freeze dried chicken that you can make into a “dust” with a Magic Bullet.

If you are wanting a probiotic, I prefer the products from Renew Life. For my cats (and us), I use the Ultimate Flora 15b CFU at a dose of 1/2 cal twice a day.

If you can please go back to your inbox (Upper right corner...click on “inbox”) to the message I sent you there yesterday and send me the info, I’ll do your spreadsheet today. We cannot give you the best dosing advice for him without it. The way the dose was taken up, it’s possible he’s overdosed but we can’t tell without the spreadsheet. If the dose is correct, by chance, we can tell you if and when you might need to do the tests at MSU.

It’s also good that you read back through this thread to be sure you got all the suggestions.

 

Good morning, Constance. Welcome to the FDMB!

I've merged your "Tigger!" and "Need Help with Tigger!" threads. It'll make it easier for you to have the information in one place. You might want to scan this thread to make sure you've read all the posts.

Again, welcome. Hope to see you posting often!

 

Thanks Guys for all your help!! I am inputing Tigs readings thus far today now. He was hungry before his 12:30 reading so I put out Whole Hearted Tuna Pate in gravy( not much gravy I can see ) They were giving out samples so I grabbed 2 yesterday .. Well after snubbing his nose yesterday at every can of wet food i bought .. topped with everything suggested by Dr. Lisa.. He GOBBLED all of this whole hearted wet food up just now !!!!!!!! Does anyone know anything about this brand? This is the first out of literally 30 different cans brands etc... that he has eaten other than the fussie cat anchovies that the vet told me to stop. Is this a victory???

 

Thankyou soo much!

 

Thanks soo much! Did you get my readings? I just sent them to you

 

Constance, I couldn't find the brand on Dr. Pierson's food chart, but I did find WholeHearted Grain Free Tuna Recipe Flaked in Gravy All Life Stages Wet Cat Food, All LIfe Stages 5.5 oz on the PetCo website. Was this what you found for Tigger? It is grain free, but probably not low carb. But, it is wet food and that's a step in a very right direction! One step at a time! As you go forward, you could probably mix in a half to one tsp of low carb food in a serving, very gradually increasing the amount of the low carb food. It may just be a matter of getting him used to a new texture. This is a victory, and hopefully you will eventually be able to transition him to an all low carb wet food. Be patient, you know how independent our cats can be.

 

I haven’t received anything from you in my Inbox here or gmail. I don’t need the BG readings; in the private message I sent to your FDMB inbox and in the gmail email, I sent you a list of things I do need to do the SS. I can’t do it without those things so please check back into your FDMB Inbox for the message from me or your gmail.

It will only take me a few minutes to do the SS which will greatly benefit Tigger so we can help you get to the correct dose.

 

Did you get it? I only have Gluecose readings

 

I spoke tooo soon on the wet food! He snubbed his nose at it for dinner!!! UGH!

 

Keep trying with the wet food, perhaps just offer a spoonful or two, let it sit for a bit, without offering the dry at the same time. Perhaps he will be hungry enough to eat the wet food first, then he can have some dry. Does he like tuna juice (the water drained from water packed tuna)? Maybe dribble a little over the wet food. I have also read that warming the wet food increases the aroma, and that might help. He's a stubborn one!

 

Leo gets Zobaline daily. Just crush it up with mortar and pestle. Then sprinkle on some wet food. I move the spoon through it to get it mixed in the top layer. It is tasteless. I give him one tablet/day. Humans can take it too. You can taste it from the remnants of the grinding - and to me it is tasteless.

 

I haven’t gotten anything from you Chris said she did a spreadsheet for you but you haven’t posted it in your signature block.

 

Goodmorning guys! I think I have finally gotten the spreadsheet on this site?!! I tested Tiggers Sugar before he ate this morning( He had a few kernals) was 192.. ( Before Insulin)Usually It is way higher. It is early for him though to be up. He woke me he was so hungry. He went right to his box after I tested him and peed alot.... I am going to give him his insulin ..I am baffled by this low number but then I have never tested him before he has eaten. Tig is peed so much this am it was quite alot. I do not know what to do. I have ordered all the food ya'll suggested and am on my way to get the wet again at Walmart. Does anyone think I need to get any tests run at the vet ?Or take him to the vet?
He is struggling so much with his walking this am also.

 

Tigger's neuropathy will take awhile to resolve. The Zobaline B12 along with BG regulation are key to fixing that issue. Many cats recover from neuropathy, but not all do. With Leo, it took 3-4 months.

 

I just did Tiggers gluecose for 5hrs after he had his shot and it is 143.... It has never been that low . I did give him some rawturkey for midmorning food rather than his Hills M/D I wonder if that made any difference. Should I be alarmed ? He was also at 193 before his breakfast which he has also never started that low. However I have never tested him before his food.

 

I don't think you should be alarmed, just observant. I looked on the spreadsheet and noted that you didn't enter the insulin dose, so you didn't shoot, right? Giving the Hill's M/D dry is like giving a human diabetic a sugar doughnut, so of course the BG is going to be higher with that food. The raw turkey meat is almost pure protein, so he didn't get the carbs for his meal/snack, so that reading is going to be lower. That's why we want our diabetic cats on low carb food.
It's a good idea to withhold food for 2 hours before the morning/evening pre-shot test and each insulin injection. That way the BG is not food influenced. Test, feed, shoot. Then if you can test during the day, you can feed as usual, just note when, what and how much food in the comments section.
So he likes raw turkey? Has he had any other raw meats? I know you have had trouble with getting him to eat canned food, perhaps a raw diet would work for him, but it's a long transition process to prevent gastric upset.
It would be great if you could get him on low carb (I know you have been trying) and giving much less insulin.

 

The chart will only color the BG cells if they have whole numbers in them. So the addition of the time messes that up. When I do a BG test, I usually round up to the next hour and just put in the test result.

You can get a feel for other cats and their ranges by looking at some other charts. Many people target 80-100 for the nadir. My Leo is not a good example because his BG varies a lot.

 

I bought a bunch of can food today too but I opened the turkey to put away in tupperware and he freaked so I gave hime some.
Thanks! How do I know how much insulin? I have just been giving what the vet said. Should I keep at 5 until I get him on wet /completely off Hills?

 

Constance, I am sorry, I can't advise on dosing insulin. I'm just not qualified or experienced enough. The experienced Lantus users are going to need as much data as possible, that's the testing results on the spreadsheet and you are just getting started with that. I'm going to tag a few of the experienced Lantus users to review what's been going on and perhaps they can advise you. @Wendy&Neko @Kris & Teasel @Marje and Gracie

I know you are doing what the vet is telling you, unfortunately not all vets are well educated with feline diabetes, and we do not yet know if Tigger actually has a condition that requires high doses of insulin. That is what the tests the vet wanted are for. Basics such as appropriate diet, right insulin and doses, and home testing need to be sorted out first.
You are testing now, and working on the diet. You are just getting used to the diabetes treatment and you are now learning to navigate on this board. You probably feel like a cat on a hot tin roof! So, remember to breathe and be kind to yourself. It's new, it's hard, but it's doable.

 

I can see your spreadsheet and that's great. Right now the BG level is very likely high because of the dry food. Here's an example of another member's (recent) experience: her diabetic kitty was eating Royal Canin Urinary S/O wet food and dry food for bladder issues that had developed a long time ago. They resolved years ago but the kitty was on that high carb diet still and her vet was suggesting an insulin dose increase from 5 units up to 6 units of Lantus because the BGs were still very high. Another member and I have been coaching her through the food transition. That kitty is now eating low carb Fancy Feast almost 100% of the time, she has some dark green numbers on the spreadsheet and kitty is down to 0.5 u per dose and likely needs another reduction soon.

Moral of the story: try really hard to make that food switch or at least find some low carb kibble like Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein.

This is a good read: https://catinfo.org/docs/TipsForTransitioning1-14-11.pdf

 

You see that AMPS column to the left side of the spreadsheet? That is your AM preshot blood test value and should read 192 for today, as you stated earlier. Are you giving insulin at night too? If so, the U or Units column needs to have the dose given written there.

We like to see the colour coding on the spreadsheets, not the time of the tests. That 143 was 5 hours after the shot, so should go in the +5 column for today. We don’t use time of day on our spreadsheets because people here are from literally all over the world and different time zones. What is important is the length of time after the shot that the test was. Plus writing the time does away with the colour coding.

I cannot comment on dose based on the spreadsheet and data as is. Let’s fix the spreadsheet and gather more data.

What type of treats are you currently giving? You want to find some low carb treats that he loves.

 

AMPS = (time value) A.M. PreShot blood glucose value
PMPS = (time value) P.M. PreShot blood glucose value

A small light bulb came on for me when I saw those definitions a few years ago. I guess this forum is probably the only one that uses those acronyms.

 

Maybe this will help you understand the spreadsheet
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

 

Hopefully I am posting this properly I did not realize I had posted a question
in private so please alert me everyone if I am not following procedure. It is taking me a bit to get the swing of this . I am not tech savy. I will try and get the spreadsheet fixed when I meet with my daughter. this Friday. It is quite complicated.
I ordered the clean protein for Tigger and the Zob tablets. I am happy to report he is eating the dry clean protein chicken as well as sliced turkey.
I noticed that the calorie content is higher than the Hills dry M/D ... He is getting about 3/4 a cup a day. I tried every wet can flavor that friskies FF make last week including heating it up & all the suggestions that the link from the Dr. that was posted in the forum. I will continue working on it. Anyway longwinded question regarding the clean protein, I cannot find the carb content on the clean protein chicken vs Hills m/d. Does anyone know? Does anyone know how long it will take to see if the Zob. tabs are working?
I have been told via a user that I cannot ask questions regarding insulin are there any other questions or a place on this site with the rules? I certainly do not want to not post correctly or ask questions that I should not ask. Thankyou for your input in advance.

 

I forgot this question regarding the spreadsheet. What I have done is incorrect with the spreadsheet so when My daughter helps me with it I have no idea what cells or amps are . Can someone tell me what that is? I have no idea. I only know what units he gets 2x day and what his test says when I prick him.
Thankyou.

 

Here’s a post that explains the spreadsheet
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/
See if that makes sense, if not post any questions and we’ll try to answer them.
I’m glad Tigger likes the Dr Elseys food. I don’t know the carb content, but understand that it’s low enough for our diabetics. Do keep trying with the wet though as it’s a much better choice.
While Zobaline will help Tiggers neuropathy, getting his diabetes under control is the most important part of correcting it, but hopefully you’ll see some improvement in the coming weeks.
You can ask questions about insulin on the open forum, just not in a private message. That way everyone can see the question and answer and correct or add to the given info.

 

Thankyou for your response . When I get the spreadshhet done I post it to the message board is that correct?
Not really sure what the importance is? Except for me to monitor his levels. The general consensus seems to be the only way I can help Tigger and his Diebetes is to hopefully get him on wet food. Which right now is not looking good.

 

Thankyou for taking the time to respond .. I appreciate the support

 

The spreadsheet is linked in your signature, so all we have to do is click on the link to see Tiggers glucose numbers. The spreadsheet will help you and us to see how well the dose of Lantus is working, and whether he needs more or less insulin. You are helping Tigger by monitoring his glucose levels and getting him on the lowest carb food he will eat. You’re doing a great job!

 

Thankyou for your reply.

Thankyou!

 

Tigger will be healthier longterm as a result of your efforts now. A lot of ramp-up (hours) is needed to get the diabetes sugar dance under control. But over time it really just becomes part of the routine, example:
- test Leo
- feed him and dose him
- brush sweet Leo
- test him
- get leg loving's from Leo

The spreadsheet helps establish long term and near term trends. It will help you, and help us give dosing and feeding advice.

 

Hey Guys! So I tested Tig before insulin and food and he was 164!! He has never been that low.. Then he got his 5 units and I tested him a few hours later and it was 70!!!!! It is 6:30 and feeding time and insulin time and he is 115 ! I called the vet because I am scared to give him 5 units... I got the Dr. kelsy clean chicken and have been giving him sandwhich turkey meat. I have never seen these low numbers!!! Clearly the Hills m/d has to be a link like ya'll said.

 

He will not touch any can but I am trying.. I figured turkey ok he snubs at it sometimes but he has been eating the turkey and The dry clean chicken for about a week

 

I wouldn't shoot 5U into a PMPS of 112 without having a lot more data

But without having your spreadsheet updated and correct, it's hard to say what you should do.

In the end, it's safer for Tigger for you to skip than to shoot 5U..especially since you've gotten the high carb dry out of the picture

 

I actually just did the spreadsheet with the only data I have collected so far. I beleive it is correct. I have only doen one reading since I began this jorney with Tigger after his dinner.
Thankyou for your input . Greatly appreciated

 

Agree with Chris on skipping the dose.

If possible, please do PMPS tests everyday. They help establish the ongoing trend. You need to know he is sufficiently high enough before each dose anyhow. For example, let's say someday you test PMPS (evening pre-shot) and you find he is 120. That probably means he is too low to dose that night unless he is having real regular numbers and is highly regulated.

 

That's much better, thank you!!

It's really important that you also get tests before the PM shot....as you saw today, if you didn't test and gave that much insulin without knowing he was so low, it could have been tragic.

Also, most cats go lower at night, so it's important to get at least a "before bed" test on the PM cycle to keep him safe.