2/5 Sami PMPS 84; +2 63; +3 57

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Tina & Sammy

Tina & Sammy

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HELP!

Sami's AMPS is 46. If she had this at any other time I would be immediately feeding HC, but protocal states to hold off from feeding and test again in 15 minutes. What should I do?

Yesterday's Condo
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46

I just tested her again because I thought maybe it was a mistake, but nope, I got 47 this time.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +.25 43 before food

Just tested again and she was 43. I know everyone must still be sleeping, but I just couldn't wait. I fed about 3/4 tsp of HC and then gave regular MM of 1/6 can. I have not given her the dose yet. I just can't see doing that where she is now.

I am wondering if I should skip the dose all together or if I should shot based on a food spiked number. I know the HC will bring her at least into the 58 in the next hour or so, which is what it did last night.

As far as Sami goes, she is probably the best she has ever been, even at 43. She slept on the bed all night last night and even came and laid down with me for a little bit. She is active and rambunctious. And she has no symptoms of being too low. Except she is very hungry, but all 5 cats were very hungry this morning so I don't see that as being a symptom.

Is it possible to go from a 1.25 dose to OTJ. I don’t think so, but with the mini meals she hasn’t been above 100 since yesterday’s AMPS and that was only after the first set of mini meals. After that she surfed the 50’s all day until PMPS which was 66, and with a full shot and mini meals she only went up to 73.

She definitely earned a decrease today so if I do shot the food spiked number it will definitely be 1.0 unit.

Hope someone wakes up soon to give some advice.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +.25 43 before food

Hold on there...gonna check out your post and then your ss....
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +.25 43 before food

well, she certainly earned a dose crease. question.....are you going to be home to monitor?

I have to go feed my furries and give Spot his shot, so I'll be back in a few minutes.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +.25 43 before food

Since I'm not sure how long you will be at home to monitor, now, the best I can do for you is give you a few options, which I'm sure you already know.
One is to continue to test to see if numbers are rising. You can give a reduced dose or not give a dose at all, what ever you feel comfortable with. If you give reduce dose and need to leave, you should leave out plenty of food for Sami to graze on in case her numbers go low.
Sorry, that's all I got for you. I have to leave for work in a few minutes, so I won't be able to get back on until I get to work. I hope someone else will pop in.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +.25 43 before food

Deb & Spot said:
Since I'm not sure how long you will be at home to monitor, now, the best I can do for you is give you a few options, which I'm sure you already know.
One is to continue to test to see if numbers are rising. You can give a reduced dose or not give a dose at all, what ever you feel comfortable with. If you give reduce dose and need to leave, you should leave out plenty of food for Sami to graze on in case her numbers go low.
Sorry, that's all I got for you. I have to leave for work in a few minutes, so I won't be able to get back on until I get to work. I hope someone else will pop in.
Click to expand...

Deb,

Sami will be going to work with me today, so I can monitor all day. I haven't given her a shot yet, but she is up to 58 after HC and LC food.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +.25 43 before food

I rechecked Sami's spreadsheet and last night after the HC she went up to 58 and then to 72, I didn't get another check after that, until this morning. I did give her a little more HC food today than last night because she was a little lower.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +.25 43 before food

I am about to check Sami again and provide another MM. It is +1.5 after her shot time, any thoughts on what I should do?

I guess my only thought is to go ahead and shoot if she is over 70. I will probably only shoot .75 units since she really earned a reduction to 1.0, but I will be shooting a food induced number.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +1.5 49 after HC & 3 LC MM

Great that you can take Sami to work with you....I can do that with Spot too....I keep a litter box in my office for him. Nice that we don't have to worry, huh.

If you feel comfortable shooting .75, go ahead...since you will be able to monitor her, you should be fine. Don't forget to take your hypo kit to work with you....hc, mc, lc foods, lots of test strips and meter.

It could be a possibility that Sami is getting her diabetes under control w/the help of those mini meals! Nothing is impossible!
Have a good day...if I can, I'll check back in during the day...it's been a bit hectic here at work, and I don't have to much time to visit condos.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +1.5 49 after HC & 3 LC MM

I guess my only thought is to go ahead and shoot if she is over 70. I will probably only shoot .75 units since she really earned a reduction to 1.0, but I will be shooting a food induced number.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a good option. You read the protocol so you know the options are
1. keep testing, when up=shoot full dose
2. Tst and shoot BCS dose (reduced by 1/4 to 1/2 the usual)
3. skip dose

In this case because she earned some reductions any way I would do option 2, it will keep some momemtum going and you can afford to drain the shed a little because you earned reductions. As to your ? about OTJ....yes it has happened that cats went from 1U or so to nothing overnite, but it usually isn't the best way and it often is short lived and they have to start again at 1U or .75U (where they stopped) and work thier way down.

You will likely find that Sami does go higher again either by next shot time or tommorrow, perhaps from bouncing from this low or because of the late and reduced shot. But you are on the right track and it won't be long!
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +1.5 49 after HC & 2 LC MM

After 3/4 teaspoon of HC and 2 MM of 1/6 can each Sami is still dropping. She was up to 58 at +1, but now at +1.5 after pre-shot, still no shot yet, she is at 49 again. I did check her twice and the second time I had a slightly larger blood sample and got 55, but I am assuming that is just variance. so her number is probably somewhere right between 49 and 55.

After having ate and she is still bordering on a LOW, I just don't feel comfortable shooting at this point. I really hate to lose all the progress we have made by skipping a shot, but I just don't know if I could do it. I might fell comfortable giving a token dose of .25 or .5, but not much more than that, especially since the number we are looking at now is a food induced number and she will only be getting two maybe three more MM this morning. I will always have food available if she starts to go lower, but it won't be out and available to her.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +1.5 49 after HC & 2 LC MM

Here is a thought. I am going to check her again in 10 - 15 minutes.

If she is still under 50 after HC and 3 MM, I will skip the dose.

If she is in the 50's or 60's after HC and 3 MM I will shot a token dose of .25 unts.

If she is above 70 after HC and 3 MM I will shot a token dose of .5 units.

With either shot it will be 2 hours after her original shot time but I will get some insulin into the shed. Then I will resume my regular shot time at 5:30 tonight, and depending on where she goes today will depend on the dose tonight. If she is over 80 most of the day then I will probabably resume with a 1.0 unit dose. If she is under 80 for most of the day then I will probably try a dose of .75 units.

I know this is totally off protocol, but I am just getting some thoughts down in writing so I can consider them as the day goes by.

What are your thoughts?
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +1.5 49 after HC & 2 LC MM

Hi,

looks as if you may have a kitty that could double dip at the end of their cycle.

You are right, you want a rising number before you shoot, even a reduced dose in my view or you'll be heading for HC very fast.
It needs to be a good enough jump in number , not just a few points because that is essentially the same with the 20% variance you get on meters.. When you shot a 58 at +2.5 you still ended up giving a little HC, but managed that well-use that as your guide. Are you back on your +12? (you weren't shooting or looking at shooting at +9.5 because of delayed shot last night?)

I'm at work too, so will just keep checking for updates.

Also-Go with your gut, Sami is your kitty :smile:

pa-you've posted, need to read and digest, brb
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +1.5 49 after HC & 2 LC MM

kate and lucky said:
Hi,

looks as if you may have a kitty that could double dip at the end of their cycle.

You are right, you want a rising number before you shoot, even a reduced dose in my view or you'll be heading for HC very fast.
It needs to be a good enough jump in number , not just a few points because that is essentially the same with the 20% variance you get on meters.. When you shot a 58 at +2.5 you still ended up giving a little HC, but managed that well-use that as your guide. Are you back on your +12? (you weren't shooting or looking at shooting at +9.5 because of delayed shot last night?)

I'm at work too, so will just keep checking for updates.

Also-Go with your gut, Sami is your kitty :smile:

pa-you've posted, need to read and digest, brb
Click to expand...

Kate, last nights shot wasn't delayed I shot on time because she had a rising number of 66. This morning I have not shot, it is now 2 hours after her normal 5:30 am shot time. I am just getting ready to check her again to see where she is. I will check back in a few minutes after the test and another MM.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +2 41 NO shot, after 2 HC and 3 LC MM

Looks like we are going with a SKIP.

She is now at 41. I just gave her a little more HC food and will hold off on giving any more LC for now. I just hope all the HC food doesn't spike her up, especially since we are SKIPPING.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +2 41 SKIPPING DOSE

Crazy how things go!

I wanted to thank everyone for chiming in this morning. I know it was a crazy situation. I am still wondering what happened. Maybe the mini meals have really helped more than I imagined they would.

Anyway, I did open another box of strips last night so with the last test I used yet another box of a different LOT number just to make sure I was getting a good reading. And that is when I got the 41. Both of the new boxes of strips are a different code number than all the other boxes I have used, but they are reading correctly when I put the strip in the meter so I can't imagine that anything is wrong with them.

Over the last hour or so Sami's spunkiness has diminished, but that is usually typical after she eats. She usually livens up once we get to the office. So I will see how she is then.

I will try to check in once we get to the office, but the mornings are usually a little busy so I might not be able to check in again until around 10 am. I will be getting additional checks on Sami between now and then and I will have food ready just in case she continues to drop.

Thanks again for all your help, and I will probably be back later today for more advice.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +1.5 49 after HC & 2 LC MM

Tina,

what does MM mean? (can you put that on your SS somewhere too?)

I'd be considering hooting at anything over 60 as you did that yesterday and only needed a small intervention of HC.

Not ideal considering to resume your normal shot time after a reduced dose. It's the equivalent of an increase in dose.If you cannot now work on a new schedule (of 2+hrs later) and gradually work back to your usual time +12, then I would skip the dose or give nothing more than .25u.

I can't predict for you what shotting .5u and then shooting 1u only 9.5hrs later will do.Should be no more than 15 minutes, some get away with occasional 30 (I did 1 hr a couple of times but after months of testing and a predictable cat as well as me being obsessed with numbers and having shedloads of data), but your potentially in dodgy ground any more than this in my view.

Darn, thought I'd sent, sorry.

Just seen your other updates. Sami may continu to surf. Quite possibly usung the reserve in the shed, but agree, skipped shot is probably the best way forward at this number.

Good job

ps-check your meter with the control solution if you have any.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +2 41 SKIPPING DOSE

Good morning Tina
That is a lot of action and decicion making before the first cup of coffee this morning. :smile:
Hope all goes well with Sami today.
You just never know when they want to pull a fast one on us.
We haven't had that problem of low numbers near a shot time but getting great
learning experience from the rest of you.
Don't work Sam too hard at the office today. :smile:
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +2 41 SKIPPING DOSE

Hi All,

Sami is doing her 50's surf again, and without insulin this morning. By the time we got to the office 45 minutes after she had her last HC food, she was at 53. Not a huge rise, but I am glad that she didn't spike up. An hour later she is still at 54. She is sleeping now so I probably won't check her again until she wakes up. To many times in the past few weeks I have woken her up to test and I don't see it as being of the utmost importance today. So I will let her sleep. It will be quite in the office for a few hours, so my guess is she won't get up until her belly tells her its time to eat.

kate and lucky said:
what does MM mean? (can you put that on your SS somewhere too?)
Click to expand...

Kate, MM means Mini Meal. It was suggested on another condo last week and then here a few days ago. I thought I had nothing to lose to give it a shot. So I have been giving Sami Mini Meals of 1/6 can of Fancy Feast 5-6 times over a 3-4 hour period rather than giving her a full can of Fancy Feast all at one time. You can check out Yesterday's Condofor complete details on what I am doing. And you can check out Putty's Condoto see how that experiment is going.

One thing I also forgot to mention yesterday, is that before I started the mini meals, in addition to the can of Fancy Feast Sami was getting at each shot time, she was also getting an additional can at around +6 in the afternoon, and plenty of food has been left out overnight. So she was actually getting at least 3 cans of Fancy Feast each day, and probably closer to 3.5 or 4 cans. Since I have started the mini meals she isn't getting that additional can of food at +6, and I only leave a small amount of food out for 5 cats when I go to bed. I am hoping to get away from leaving any food out at bedtime, but I think I will need to wean them off the midnight snacks slowly.

kate and lucky said:
ps-check your meter with the control solution if you have any.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I don't have any control substance for this meter yet. I did do a quick test on myself and got 101, so my guess is that everything is fine with the meter. I should pick up some control solution just to have on hand if it is needed though.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +6 52 - SKIPPED DOSE

What a busy morning for you, Tina! It'll be interesting to see how Sami does for the rest of the day and what her PMPS numbers are. :smile:
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +6 52 - Draining the Shed?

Sami just got a 52 on her +6 test. She also just had the last of her mini meals for her AM cycle. So it will be interesting to see where she goes from here. I do have additional food and will continue to check her about every 2 hours just in case she goes back into the 40's.

How long does it take to drain the shed? Just wondering when I might see her start to rise again. I am sort of hoping she stays stable all through the day today, but I want to be prepared if she does start to rise.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +6 52 - Draining the Shed?

Nice +6

if she rises, hopefully it's a slow and steady rise - good luck!
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +6 52 - Draining the Shed?

(((Tina & Sami))
Exciting morning you have had!! Wow! Sami is doing so good & you are handling her amazingly well! Sami needs to come talk to Baby for a bit ;-)
Thank you for all your suggestons on my post yesterday -- unfortunately we are already doing everything you suggested :cry:
I feed mini meals, I feed after testing but before shooting & I don't shoot the scruff. We will keep trying.. looking forward to Sami updates.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +6 52 - Draining the Shed?

If you skipped the dose this is not a +6 but rather a +18 since it has been 18 hours since her last dose of insulin. And I would say that is a very nice number. I don't think you need to worry about her going to low, yes she is probably still using some of her shed but I am sure that by +24 there will be almost no Lantus left in her, so the dropping you are seeing is her OWN pancreas producing insulin in response to food! That is a good thing but by over feeding and forcing it to keep working with no support from Lantus you risk undoing the healing that has occured. I can assure that she won't hypo when she hasn't has insulin in 18 hours. Look at my SS way down my guy Spooky is often in the 40's and even 30's and he hasn't had insulin in 6 months! usually he is lower like that AFTER eating. Definatly don't feed HC today and just snacks when you normally would, you don't need to feed any numbers.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +18 52 - Draining the Shed?

Monique & Spooky said:
If you skipped the dose this is not a +6 but rather a +18 since it has been 18 hours since her last dose of insulin. And I would say that is a very nice number. I don't think you need to worry about her going to low, yes she is probably still using some of her shed but I am sure that by +24 there will be almost no Lantus left in her, so the dropping you are seeing is her OWN pancreas producing insulin in response to food! That is a good thing but by over feeding and forcing it to keep working with no support from Lantus you risk undoing the healing that has occured. I can assure that she won't hypo when she hasn't has insulin in 18 hours. Look at my SS way down my guy Spooky is often in the 40's and even 30's and he hasn't had insulin in 6 months! usually he is lower like that AFTER eating. Definatly don't feed HC today and just snacks when you normally would, you don't need to feed any numbers.
Click to expand...


Good point about the +18, I didn't think about that. I will update my subject line.

At this point my plan is to continue to give mini meals the way I have been for the last day an half, about 1/6 can of FF over a 3-4 hour period, starting at 5:30, which was when I was giving the shot. If I am not putting insulin into her system I will NOT use HC even if she falls below 50.

I guess we will just wait and see where she goes today to determine if I will need to continue to give insulin or if she is balancing her own sugar level.

Thanks Monique.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +18 52

Monique - I have a question (sorry to hijack your post Tina)
Since Baby is cruising yellows - does this mean that the month she has been on Inuslin that her Pancreas has not done any healing? Just wondering.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +18 52

Beautiful, simply Beautiful!! Sami is looking very good w/o insulin for the pat 18 hrs. I hope that she continues to surf!!
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +18 52

Nicole & Baby said:
Monique - I have a question (sorry to hijack your post Tina)
Since Baby is cruising yellows - does this mean that the month she has been on Inuslin that her Pancreas has not done any healing? Just wondering.
Click to expand...

Hey Nicole,

Not a problem. I remembered reading some really good information about this very thing and I just spent some time searching for it and there is some very good information on Baby's Condo from 1/24. I think it starts with Sienne's post at 10:19 am and continues through Monique's post of 6:52 am 1/25.

I had to read it a few times before I totally understood the chemistry of it all, but it might help you to better understand what is going on in Baby's Body.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +18 52

Nicole read that again that Tina linked. And no it doesn't mean she has had no healing, but healing occurs when they are in green. Every minute spent in greens leads to some healing and the sum of all those minutes is and the condition of the pancreas itself is what determines when they will go OTJ.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +18 52

Tina & Monique - thank you! I just reread & I gather from that .... that Baby's beta cells in the pancreas are irreparably damaged. I guess we won't be able to get her BG out of the 200s, but I want to help her not get into the 300s. Thank you for your input & valuable information.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +18 52

I don't think that's the case with Baby at all Nicole. You have only been on insulin for a month. Look at Heathers Jasper she was 2 years, and got OTJ! Sometimes it happens quick that kittys get regulated and healed others bounce around a while before they settle down and heal. All the time spent under 250 or so is stabalized (meaning although not much healing is going on, damage is limited as well) Sugar causes damage and being over worked causes damage. So even if the pancreas is still trying to do some work, at least being under 250 the high sugar is not doing so much damage. I spent 3 months on Caninsulin and rarely had numbers under 300 (a few blues and greens in 3 months and only for an hour or so in that range :-x ) After switching to levemir it still took a few weeks to get blues and greens and we bounced often to reds and blacks :evil: All of a sudden at 2U he started getting more green and then earning dose decreases and then the decreses stopped working and we went back up a notch, then he went low, then he bounced high. Then I was shooting Preshots of 60 and he was staying more green. He was also a dry food hold out (kitty crack addict) so I was batteling 28% carb food! But it took 5 months (on Levemir) to get to OTJ the time spent on Caninsulin was no gain. recent information shows that 85% of cats that use this protocol with lantus or Levemir (beginning with in 6 months of Dx) will go OTJ eventually (times range from 4 weeks to 1+ years) You have an excellent chance.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +22.5 78; need dose advice

Okay, here we are at +22.5 and Sami is at 78. Yes, I know this is still within the normal range, but I am wondering if she will continue to rise. She did hold those 50's through +20, but she has been rising since then.

Now, I need to know if I should give Sami a dose of insulin tonight and if so how much. I know we still have about an hour and a half before PMPS, but I wanted to get some thoughts before we get there.

Thanks.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +22.5 78; need dose advice

Tina, by being too low to shoot at +12, Sami earned a dose reduction. Her new dose is 1 unit!

We've had some people go off insulin without tapering first, and usually those remissions don't last very long. You can look at Putty's spreadsheet for an example. Sami was in high numbers just a few days ago, so her best chance at going OTJ and STAYING OTJ is to give her pancreas as much healing time as possible before we remove the training wheels. Our goal is to keep them on insulin for as long as we can and wean the amount down to the point when their bodies barely even notice when we stop shooting. Make sense?
 
Re: 2/5 Sami AMPS 46; +22.5 78; need dose advice

Libby and Lucy said:
Tina, by being too low to shoot at +12, Sami earned a dose reduction. Her new dose is 1 unit!

We've had some people go off insulin without tapering first, and usually those remissions don't last very long. You can look at Putty's spreadsheet for an example. Sami was in high numbers just a few days ago, so her best chance at going OTJ and STAYING OTJ is to give her pancreas as much healing time as possible before we remove the training wheels. Our goal is to keep them on insulin for as long as we can and wean the amount down to the point when their bodies barely even notice when we stop shooting. Make sense?
Click to expand...

Yep, that does make sense. So knowing what we know right now, that Sami is currently at 78 and rising. I should shoot a 1.0 unit dose at normal shot time since we skipped this mornings dose.

Now I realize this could all get thrown out the window in an hour if she dropping again right.
 
Re: 2/5 Sami PMPS 84; Shooting 1.0 unit dose

Okay, Sami is still rising slowly. Over the last hour and a half since she was tested she has come up 5 more points. And she took a car ride, so that could have done it.

Anyway, I am about to shoot a 1.0 unit dose. Any objections or concerns?
 
Re: 2/5 Sami PMPS 84; Shooting 1.0 unit dose

You've shot higher green than this on other doses, and she earned this new one!

SHOOOOT!! :lol:

Grab a +1 too!

Good luck with the new dose
 
Re: 2/5 Sami PMPS 84; Shooting 1.0 unit dose

A very interesting day :mrgreen:

Don't be surprised if Sami's numbers go higher (may not).If they do it will be because the shed is refilling, so you stick with your 1u dose.

After todays events I see good things in your future :mrgreen:
 
Re: 2/5 Sami PMPS 84; Shooting 1.0 unit dose

Wow,Tina! What a day for you and Sami! Congratulations on the dosecrease. Usually kitties send a little signal when it is time to decrease, but Sami used a sledgehammer to let you know, hahahaha!!
 
Re: 2/5 Sami PMPS 84; +2 63

Wow!

Sami was at 94 at +1 and I thought for sure she would be over 100 at +2, but she is dropping fast. She is currently at 63. I just fed her fourth mini meal. She only has one more to go, but I am nervous about feeding any more at this point because if she continues to drop like this she could be heading for another low and will need to be ready to eat HC.

It is going to be an interesting night.
 
Sami is still dropping but only slowly. At +3 she is just under 60. I did give her the last mini meal for tonight, but depending on where she goes in the next few hours I might give an additional snack if necessary. With what happened yesterday, I will probably get more spot checks tonight, because I don't know how long Sami was under 50 last night. I am hoping she just did her double dip after +10, but there is no way to know without the tests.
 
Here is a question:

What if Sami is under 50 at +10 tonight. Should I give her HC with under 2 hours to go to AMPS? I guess if she is jut under 50 at maybe 49 I could give low carb, but if she is 41, I just don't know if LC would be enough. I know almost everyone will be sleeping at 3:50 am EST so I want to get this out there now just in case.
 
usually with low numbers late in the cycle, it isn't necessary to HC. The insulin is not very strong at that point, so LC food might be enough to overcome the insulin. Best way to find out is to try it - if you get a low number near the end of the cycle, feed a couple tsp of LC and test again in 20-30 minutes (obviously if the number is VERY low then test in 15-20 minutes, don't wait til 30). If she is still dropping 20-30 minutes after LC, then you can try a drizzle of gravy.

When it's shot time and you have a number that you feel you can't shoot, then we try not to feed that number while we're stalling. Feeding while stalling makes it really hard to tell if the number is rising because of food, or because the insulin is wearing off. You don't want to be fooled into shooting because you think the number is rising due to the end of the cycle, just to have it really be a food spike, because as soon as the food spike wears off the number could be back in the basement again. I do always feed the 40's, so if faced with 40's at shot time I would probably give about a tsp or two of LC food. Not too much so as to artificially inflate the next test, and not HC.
 
Good Evening, Tina. Just getting around to dropping in your condo. Sami and you did a great job today. Hope she doesn't keep dropping and surfs the night away.

Gonna go test Spot and head on to bed. Hope you have a good evening.
 
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