? 8/13 Disco AMPS 232/+3 264/+4.5 307/+9.5 288/PMPS 194/+1.5 285, feeding MC questions. Photo

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by Teri (Disco NoFurNo), Aug 13, 2020.

  1. Teri (Disco NoFurNo)

    Teri (Disco NoFurNo) Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2019
    Yesterday 8/12: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/8-12-disco-amps-180-2-222-failed-reduction-photo.233531/

    Well, we are coming up on cycle 13 tomorrow and no swimming in the Lagoon or pretending he's Shark Bait since 8/7 and I was intrigued by Disco having fellow Rainbow doppelgangers out there, @Zelda & Walter and @Shiloh567 and so I went and visited their pages and I am trying to learn. I am not a very good note-taker, so try and copy and paste info that might help me remember recommendations and advice. Just like Gideon's 78 after a 262 3 hours earlier, Disco has given me a shock when he give me a 37 3.5 hours after a 242.

    Until Disco started piling on the ounces (which have turned into pounds), I used to feed him small LC snacks at each spot test. Then I started skipping those snacks, but he was still gaining weight and I didn't see a pattern to any changes good or bad to not feeding him those snacks. I know he was cleaning up the other 2 cats LC food leftovers, so for the past month or so, I have been feeding them all separately and his weight has stabilized at least.

    I think @Sue and Luci suggested I give him Karo syrup instead of HC foods when he dips as he doesn't do well with much gluten as he has IBD and I will try that when/if/when it happens again. And did I read this correctly, that maybe for Rainbow cats like Disco, by the time the downward slide hits 70, it's too late for food to slow the slide, so I need to also be more diligent on that and a testing schedule. I mean, I am retired so in a lot better position to do that than someone working full-time, but still sometimes I realize that hours have passed. Need to start setting my phone alarm again! There were times I fed him MC in the low 100's but not with any consistency or plan.

    Anyone can chime in and let me know if this is a good plan--feed Disco's usual 2 oz of Darwin's raw chicken/turkey and add 1/4 can MC to that..Or does he need more MC at the AM/PM meals? Then when I spot test him, I will feed 2 tsp MC up until 2 hrs pre-shot. Also, do I increase to 3u again in the morning on Friday?

    Thanks in advance for being part of Disco's Care Team!

    Today's Daily Disco Photo is one of him at his most obese, 16#. He probably wouldn't want me to share this any more than I would want him sharing one of me in the same shape, but at 14# 6oz currently, he is closer to that weight than he is at his optimum weight of 12#, which is the 2nd photo.
     

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  2. Bandit's Mom

    Bandit's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2019
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  3. Teri (Disco NoFurNo)

    Teri (Disco NoFurNo) Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2019
    Thanks! I kind of forgot to do the extra tagging I finish the post just before I headed to bed
     
  4. carfurby

    carfurby Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    I'd definitely increase Disco's dose next shot. You haven't seen any green since 8/7. I can't find the original post about using food to manipulate numbers, but I did find some information I had saved. I posted it below.

    Here are the basics:

    what is meant by using food to manipulate the curve?
    simply put, it's a method of feeding used to prevent kitty from dropping too fast and/or too low.
    the amount of food usually fed to the cat is broken down into several mini-meals fed throughout the course of the day with the intention of flattening out the curve. lc is normally fed to all numbers except possibly in the case of a significant or fast drop or fed to a drop below 50.

    theonly timeyou might want to feed a little higher carb foodat shot timeis to bump the numbers up so the insulin is starting from a higher number when onset occurs if you're running out the door and will be unable to monitor.

    if you're around to monitor, there's no reason to bump the numbers up at shot time. the beauty of lantus and levemir is being able to shoot low to stay low. shooting low is how you obtain the lowflatcurve with lantus and levemir.

    whether you'd want to feed lc, mc, or hcto slow a dropdepends on two things:
    1. the carb sensitivity or lack of of your particular cat.
    2. the point you're at in the cycle. a drop early in the cycle *may* require big guns. a drop at nadir (unless nadir is less than 40) or late in the cycle usually only requires lc to bump the numbers up. however, if you have a carb sensitive kitty, you may not have to use anything except lc to bump up the numbers."KNOW THY CAT".

    why would you want to manipulate the curve with food?
    ---bouncers: kitties who drop low and then bounce to the moon benefit from food manipulation. using food to manipulate the curve will tend to flatten out the curve. flattening out the curve helps to prevent huge bounces.
    ---carb sensitive kitties: kitties who experience large food spikes when consuming even lc benefit from manipulating the curve with food. strategically spacing out meal times will help flatten out the curve.

    why do i want to use food to flatten out the curve ?
    --- flattening out the curve allows you to get as much insulin into the cat as safely possible without having kitty bottom out on you.
    --- flattening out the curve *usually* allows you to hang onto a dose longer
    --- flattening out the curve allows you to shoot higher doses of insulin than you would have been able to otherwise.

    why would i want to get as much insulin as possible into the cat?
    lantus and levemir are known to have a harder time bringing down higher numbers. more insulin helps bring down the higher numbers in a bouncer's cycle. more insulin will help counteract the spikes in a food spiker. using food to manipulate the curve will flatten out the curve and help keep your kitty safe.


    when using food to manipulate the curve, i generally recommend starting with dividing up the normal amount of food your kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals to be fed at preshot, +1, +2, and +3 of each cycle. however, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. a plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.
    Edited to add on 11/13/2015:
    I was referring to manipulating the curve when using Lantus in the paragraph above.
    Levemir typically has a later onset (usually around +4) and a later nadir. To accommodate the difference, when using Levemir one might start with dividing up the normal amount of food kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals beginning at shot time, +3, +6, and +7 of each cycle. However, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. A plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. Frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.


    a quote that goes along with this subject from Libby/Lucy found in one of Mocha's Lantus condos:

    "carb manipulation is more about learning what your cat's response is to varying amounts of carbs at different times during the cycle, and using that information to your advantage. Learn how many points bump she gets from LC, MC, and HC, both early in the cycle and later in the cycle. Use that information to guide her cycles the way you want them to go. Mocha's AM and PM cycles are very different, so the best feeding times for her might not be the same in each cycle. Take the amount you would feed her over the 12 hour period, divide it into 3-4 meals, and experiment with when to feed them. Whatever changes you make, write them in your spreadsheet and hold it for at least 3-4 days to see if it is changing anything. Mocha drops later at night than she does during the day, so your food schedule might need to be different at night.

    Many cats benefit from front-loading the cycle with food. That means feeding at PS, +1, +2, +3 (when the insulin is kicking in) and then NOT feeding after +6 (because for a carb sensitive cat, you would be adding food at the same time the insulin is wearing off, driving the numbers higher). The +9 snack is helpful for some cats when they are trying to go OTJ, because it can stimulate their pancreas. That is more useful if the cat is generally flat, but spikes up just before PS. I wouldn't worry about that yet, until you get to a lower dose."


    experimenting is how YOU learn how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself. no one feeding plan will affect two different cats in the exact same ways. experimenting, testing, recording your observations... these are the things which will help YOU with YOUR kitty because like you'll often hear around here...ECID.:mrgreen:
     
  5. Teri (Disco NoFurNo)

    Teri (Disco NoFurNo) Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2019
    MeWowZa!! Thanks for all this info! I will read it when I really wake up in the morning, but I’ll increase his dose this morning
     
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  6. Briere Fur Mom

    Briere Fur Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2019
    Wonderful info Carla.
    Good luck Teri. Disco's a tricksy one. Watching your journey is proving to be very informative. Look forward to seeing Disco partying at the beach before he decides to trash the lagoon:p
    Have a great day Teri.
    Be good Disco:cat:
     
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  7. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    From the New to the Group Sticky Note Using Food to Manipulate the Curve
    I'm not sure I'd give MC at preshot meals. Maybe get a test 1/2 hour before onset, see if he's flat or lower than preshot, and add MC then. You want those carbs fresh on board for onset.

    Good luck with the increase. Have you considered the technique of using multiple drops below 50 (3 between 40 and 49 on separate days) as a way to earn reductions? Or reduce immediately if under 40. That's what we do for cats that have a hard time holding reductions.

    I also wouldn't hold a dose so long if it's not giving you green after a reduction and the bounce clears.
     

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