New to this forum and new to cat diabetes

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Becki and sox, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    Hi every one I'm new to this forum and it's topic.
    My cat has recently been diagnosed as diabetic (28/10/2018)
    We are due to visit the vet nurse tonight to discuss our options wether it be diet control or insulin.
    When we took Sox to the vets last Thursday his blood sugar levels were reading at 30 on a pet monitor.
    Over the weekend after research in to foods and monitoring I decided to take him of the dry food that he had replacing it with just his canned meat food that he had along side. ( It has been an eye openers to how bad dry foods can be)
    Since Sunday I have been monitoring his blood on a human freestyle lite machine. Sundays reading was 18.8 Mondays was 12.4 and this morning he was 10.5 so it is coming down. Could this be due to stopping the crunchies?
    Also if any one out there can give me any information on the best foods to feed that can be brought at a shop rather than prescribed that would be very helpful.
    Thank you to any one who reads and can offer any help.
     
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  2. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Hi again Becki! As far as numbers coming down some, that could very well be due to the change in food. You’ll want to find a food less than 10% carbs, preferably wet. To better help you with food choices, let us know what country you’re in.
     
  3. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Hi, welcome to the best place to help you treat your kitty!
    Yes, the switch to lower-carb food could very well be contributing to the lower bg numbers which is very good news. Keep monitoring and if numbers continue to drop, you may be one of the lucky ones and find that Sox can be controlled through diet alone.
    As Sharon says, let us know what country you're in and we can suggest some good foods. Wet is always recommended for a diabetic cat but there is quite a lot of variation in carb content. Basically you're looking for a food in jelly, not gravy. Most supermarkets stock a good range so it should be easy to find something suitable.
    Good luck!
     
  4. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Hi thank you both for your replies.
    I'm in the UK and currently feed all my cats on the wet tinned cat food from Lidl. Both jelly and gravy. So I will avoid giving him the gravy one.
    I'm hoping it is the stopping of the crunchies that is making the numbers come down seems to be so far but I will see what the vet nurse also says about it tonight at my appointment.
     
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  5. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Hi Becki, and Sox, and welcome!

    You're doing incredibly well to have already stopped dry food and learned to hometest. Great job!
    And it's wonderful to see those numbers come down. :)

    Given that the blood glucose level still seems to be trending downwards it could be worth sticking with the wet diet alone for a wee bit longer to see how that settles out.
    (The number your vet/vet nurse will get using a pet meter will be a bit higher than you'll get using a human meter because they 'read' slightly differently. And the number may also be elevated because of the stress of being at the vets.)

    Becki, if you give me more info about the Lidl foods I can probably work out the carb content for you. Somewhere on the packs you should find info that gives specific percentages for protein, fat, ash, fibre and moisture. Is that info there?

    Eliz
     
  6. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Hi again, thought you were in the UK! There are a few of us here who are familiar with foods... I don't know the Lidl ones but if you can tell us the names, our food expert @Elizabeth and Bertie should be able to help you decide if they are good for Sox.
    Otherwise, most cans and pouches in jelly should be ok. Whiskas and Felix are popular choices as they are so readily available, but there are better quality brands with higher meat content if you want to improve nutritional value as well as lower carb intake. Some of these are availablenin supermarkets but most are from online suppliers.


    ETA - I was typing as Elizabeth was posting!
     
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  7. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    This is the % that shows on the tin.
    It says sardine 4% and tuna 4%
    I have been looking at a canned food with higher meat content. Any other than Felix and whiskers in store that you can recommend that are good protein and low carbs?

    Thank you every one for you help. Always good if you can speak to people who are experiencing it too ☺️ x
     

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  8. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Sorry this is a better picture
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Hi again Becki
    There are quite a few foods on Elizabeth's food list (look at the link to that on her "signature" at the bottom of her posts.

    A good brand that you can get in supermarkets include Sainsbury's Delicious (chicken or fish varieties) which have a better meat content than Felix/Whiskas. I think there's an equivalent at Tesco but not sure what it's called. Also Hi Life which is available in certain supermarkets. Elizabeth might add some more names for you but for the higher-end foods you may have to shop online at somewhere like Zooplus or go to a pet supermarket such as Pets at Home. My kitty's current food is Nature's Menu chicken and turkey which I buy from www.fetch.co.uk

    Hopefully Sox isn't too picky and you'll find one or two brands that he'll enjoy. Some cats don't take to a wet diet if they've been used to dry food, and some love it! It's definitely worth persevering as a wet diet is much healthier for any cat, diabetic or not.
     
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  10. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Hi Becki, thanks for that data.... ....I've got some bad news and some good news....

    Bad news
    is that, despite the ingredients listed on those labels, the data there suggests the foods are just over 20% calories from carbs! And for diabetics we recommend foods that have less than 10% calories from carbs.
    Good news is that there are lots of foods available with less than 10% calories from carbs. Further, if you switch to one of those your cat's blood glucose may drop even further....
    .
     
  11. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    I see Diana has given some good food suggestions above.
    Another food that is really popular with UK'ers at the moment is 'Sheba fine flakes'. It seems to be very palatable to cats and is around 2.5% calories from carbs (according to the label data). It's widely available and is about a fiver for a box of 12 x 85g pouches.
    .
     
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  12. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Actually even better - it's £3.75 a box in Sainsbury's atm! :)
     
  13. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    Ahh ok thanks for that. I've just bulk buyed my food too for this month.
    Ill probably look at using that for my other cats and get some other for Sox.
    How do I work out the carb % when I'm out and about?
    And Diana and Tom thank you about the food I'll have a look into it.
    Thanks every one
     
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  14. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    :woot:
    .
     
  15. Tanya and Ducia

    Tanya and Ducia Well-Known Member

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    Hi there,
    I thought you'd be glad to hear that this year alone we had several kitties who's gone into remission due to diet change.
    Of course, they will remain diabetics but won't require the insulin therapy. Diet controlled.

    Sometimes you can see the change in the BG numbers so dramatic that it makes you wonder what on Earth have they made that dry food of?

    Another positive thing is that you have just started weaning off the dry food but already seeing good response.
    It takes time to get rid of all of the previously consumed dry foods within kittie's body.
    really think that you will see BG levels even lower than now and it's a wonderful sign.
     
  16. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    That's great. It does make you wonder what is in the dry food.
    I read some one who put feeding dry food to your cat is like feeding chocolate and sweets to your kids.
    I've took all the cats off it now. As they are all indoors and could probably benifit with losing a few pounds. So for now crunchies will just be a treat now and then.
    I was really surprised when I saw numbers coming down just after 3 days that's what made me thought could it really just be the crunchies.
    Was so worried when I got the diagnosis but now speaking to more people it's not as scary as I though x ☺️
     
  17. Tanya and Ducia

    Tanya and Ducia Well-Known Member

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    :)
    HERE is link to the blog of a US Feline Nutritionist Dr. Pierson.
    Extremely educating on cat's best feeding options and explains risks of feeding dry regularly - there are more dangers to it than being high in Carbs!
    And it's good read - check it out if you got the time.
     
  18. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    If you've got other kitties to feed as well you could consider Butcher's Classic, which you can get as 6 x 400g cans, or 12 x 400g cans. It's available from quite a few places and is far cheaper than the Sheba fine flakes. The Butcher's is around 7.6% calories from carbs.

    There are lots of foods in the list in my signature below. Scroll down the list a bit for supermarket foods. (And if you're willing to buy online from somewhere like Zooplus there may be many more options besides...)
    .
     
  19. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    I don't think cat milk is great, no, it contains sugars, and not ordinary milk either. It's really a myth that cats like milk - often they are allergic to the lactose.
    As for treats, look for things like freeze-dried chicken pieces in little tubs (Thrive or Cosma). They can be quite expensive in supermarkets so look online at Zooplus. Or you can offer small pieces of cooked chicken as treats, or ham or cheese in moderation. All zero carbs.
     
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  20. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Carbs aren't often listed in the ingredients, so the way to find the approximate carb% by weight is to add up the other percentages for protein, fat, ash, fibre and moisture and deduct that from 100%. But here on FDMB we take the calculation further and compare by 'the percentage of calories' from carbs, looking for that to be less than 10% for a diabetic.
    There used to be a good phone app that did this calculation, but I think it's disappeared now, sadly. Though there are some others around that do the calculation slightly differently.

    There is a good online calculator by Scheyderweb that gives a good ballpark figure. Details are in the second link in my signature below (scroll down almost to the bottom of that info).
    And/or I can send you my Excel SS which does the whole calculation (sent to me when I first joined this forum). It's basic but works just fine. If you'd like it just PM me your email address.

    Eliz
     
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  21. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    So i have just returned from my appointment at the vets they checked his glucose on their alphatrak and it was 25.5 I think this is possibly high due to stress.
    They have recommended diet control to start with and suggest Purina DM. With 24 cans at 46 pounds.
    At the moment I am going to continue with my food currently feeding to do a curve test at weekend but then will possibly try feeding either the butcher's choice or Sainsbury's ones.
     
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  22. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Good for you, Becki. Good call to stick with usual low-carb food - there should be no need for expensive prescription food. That 25.5 is very high but probably at least partly due to vet stress. It will be interesting to see a curve at the weekend - can you plot the numbers on a spreadsheet and link to your signature here so we can see and comment if you'd like us to? If you need help setting up a spreadsheet just say, there are people here who can do it very quickly for you.
     
  23. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    I did think it was very expensive when there might be super market equivlents.
    Also the vet nurse recommend if I'm going to change his food to do it gradually over a week. Is this something that is recommended as she said it could spike the glucose results?

    Yes definitely I will put the results on here when I've done it on Sunday hopefully.

    If those are the values have I worked it out right that the % of carbs is 7.3

    Fingers crossed I have figured it out properly lol. Thanks
     

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    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
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  24. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Yes, when switching foods it is always best to do so gradually so as to familiarise kitty with the new taste etc and avoid possible tummy upsets. Not sure what your vet nurse meant about switching maybe causing bg spike, it should be the other way round if you're going to a compeletely wet low-carb diet.

    I'll leave it to Elizabeth to comment on your carb calculation!
     
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  25. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Yes! :)
    (My calculator makes it a smidge higher but it may be rounding up).

    Eliz
     
  26. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Great thank you. Least I know I can work them out now is store when I'm looking at the foods.
    Only one I'm struggling with is whiskers as I can't see the ash%

    When testing six this morning (at 7am) his BG was 13.3 so had gone up from yesterday morning. Is it normal for it to go up and down. Or could it still be running abut high from his visit to vets last night?
    Do you advise testing BG once or twice a day?
     
  27. Paigeworthy

    Paigeworthy Member

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    Oct 22, 2018
    About had a damn heart attack when I saw your numbers, then I realized you were international. Welcome to you, Becki and Sox! I am new as well; River was dx on 10/20. You will find lots of support here. Hang in!! <3
     
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  28. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    If you can't see the food info on the box, you can sometimes get more details by looking up the product online. Try one of the supermarkets such as Sainsbury's or Tesco, they should have detailed content analysis.

    As for bg, yes it certainly is normal for it to go up and down, and this is the major frustration when treating FD. It depends on food intake (what and when), energy levels, stress factors, any infection going on... any of those things can affect bg. The challenge is to try to keep numbers in a normal range for as much of the day as possible. This is where keeping a log of your testing results and other info will be vital in trying to work out a correct dose of insulin (if it comes to that).

    13.3 isn't a bad number at all for a diabetic cat (albeit still definitely a diabetic number) but you would need to shoot insulin to bring it down. As far as frequency of testing is concerned - if/when you're giving insulin you would need to test before every shot, to ensure that the number is high enough to warrant a dose. Then, testing as and when you can during the 12-hour cycle (insulin is normally given twice a day) will enable you to see how the insulin is working - when it starts to take effect (onset), what is the lowest number during the cycle, and at what point it starts rising again. This is a curve, in essence. I think you said you were planning to do a curve at the weekend which will be good practise and enable you to see how numbers fluctuate during the day, BUT those numbers will most likely be very different without insulin. There is no particular need to test unless you're giving insulin, but it's all good useful data.
     
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  29. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Becki, in case you're wondering - the US uses its own bg numbers which are different to the rest of the world. There's no need to get overly involved in this for now, but for possible future reference - to translate a US number to a world number, divide it by 18, and to convert a world number to US, multiply it by 18.
     
  30. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Ok great so 13.3 would be 239?
     
  31. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Correct!
     
  32. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Okie dokie. Think I get that then.
    Thanks every one for all your input.its been really useful I'll see how I get on now over the next couple of days and keep every one updated on how were getting on ☺️
     
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  33. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    So tested tonight and it's 17.6 UK reading..
    How long does it take to see major changes in stability. Be it a few days or does it take at least a few weeks to regulate?
    Vet said to stay on food he's currently fed but that has carbs at 20% do you think I should change his diet to a 10% or lower one before we do the curve test.
    Thanks guys
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  34. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm.... Numbers seem to be creeping up again....
    Any change in what you're feeding, Becki?
    .
     
  35. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    He had the same food this morning as he has every day. He did have a different food last night at around 8pm. But he's had it off and on through the month before I knew he was diabetic. It did have a lower carb content. Maybe it's my own fault for giving him that instead??
     
  36. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    I'd change to a lower carb food and see if that makes any difference. 20% carbs is quite high so hopefully a lower carb food will lower bg. If you then stick to a lower carb food for a few days before doing a curve, you'll have a better idea of what Sox's "normal" bg may be on low carb food but without insulin, and you'll have a clearer picture of whether insulin is needed or not.
     
  37. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Yeah I was thinking would be better to get him on lower one soon as possible really. So just gradually change it over a few days?
    I've never weighed his food before so he's 4.9kg how much would you recommend feeding? And still ok to keep to his 2 feeds a day?
     
  38. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Well ideally yes, change food over gradually, a few days is fine... mix a little of the new one in with the existing one, increasing the proportion of new each time until the whole meal is the new food.

    You prohably dont need to weigh the amount you feed... unregulated diabetics are often very hungry so give him as much as he needs. Two meals a day may not be enough, or you could offer some carb free treats as mentioned earlier.
     
  39. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    ???? Nothing here ???
     
  40. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Sorry it's not loading my image it's one of the Sainsbury's canned food and has 8.5 protein and 6.71% carbs. That should be ok shouldnt it
     
  41. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    What's the name of it Becky and what do you mean by protuberance?
     
  42. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    It's adult compleat by Sainsbury's or im thinking butcher's choice.
    Sorry it was ment to say protein my phone likes making up words
     
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  43. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    If it's tinned or pouch food in jelly it should be fine. The poultry varieties are usually the best to go for, and fish just once a week or so.
    Ah yes phones do like making up words! I didn't think that could be right but when people are new to FD it is easy to get confused with the technical jargon :) :) :)
     
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  44. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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  45. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Yes that's the one. Any particular reason why chicken is better than fishy one?
     
  46. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    There probably isn't much difference in nutritional value, but it isn't generally recommended to feed fish too often as it may contain something that isn't good for cats in excess.
    So the tins you're going to feed look ok carb wise. They are really the Sainsbury's equivalent of Whiskas or Felix with 4% meat. If you want to increase the meat content in the diet you could alternate with one of the other brands we mentioned.
     
  47. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    This is the one I've brought
     

    Attached Files:

  48. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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  49. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Thank you. I think I did hear some where before that too much fish isn't good for them.
    So you think that Sainsburys one will be ok for now for the low carbs but then just alternate with a low carb high meat content occasionally. How are you best to altinate them if you have to swap food over a few days? Sorry for the dumb question.
    Thank you ☺️
     
  50. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Not a dumb question at all! The food you've bought may or may not be similar in carb value to the other (dearer) food which is just higher in actual meat content. If you look at the label you attached the image file of here, it lists meat and meat derivatives as the main content but derivatives can mean anything and not actually muscle meat. Actually the label also says derivatives of vegetable origin, and various sugars - these things can elevate bg so if you feed this don't be surprised to see a bit of a spike. But, you just don't know, it's trial and error. You are right at the beginning of all this, you're doing really well, it sounds as if there's a lot to take in but once you get your head round the basics it gets much easier!
     
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  51. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    So even if the carb value is lower it still might not be any good for him and might still make his glucose high cause of the other things?

    It is... It's all very confusing. Thinking I'm just stressing a little at the moment now as we've took crunchies off him so I want to make sure I'm feeding him as much as what he needs while doing the best for him and not making him worse. I hope this food work ok as I'm looking for something I can swap all my cats into to make it easier.
    Would the butcher's choice one be any better?
     
  52. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    PS sorry got distracted with something else and didn't really answer your question about alternating foods. Many people feed their cats different brands/flavours in rotation so it's a question really of finding a few varieties that a cat will eat and getting them used to those foods. It's a sudden change that might upset them a bit.

    And yes, even if the carb value stated on the label looks ok, the food *might* raise bg due to "various sugars". Some cats will spike easily on some foods, others may not. It's worth a try and you can keep a note of bg numbers and see what happens.

    I know it's stressful, we've all been there and we do understand. But you are doing well, really. Taking the dry away was a huge step forward, and you're making a start with low carb wet foods. As long as you give him enough of this to compensate for the lack of crunchies and ensure he's nor hungry, this is fine. You are certainly not making him worse, don't think that. Even if there are ingredients in the Sainsburys food that turn out to cause a little spike, it's still better than the dry.

    Butchers Choice may be better, I'll see if I can find it online.
     
  53. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Ok thank you so much.
    I have 12 cans of this Sainsbury's food now so I'll see how I get on with this one.
    Think butcher's choice from the looks of it doesn't have any vegetable or various sugars in it.

    So glad I found this site it's really useful speaking to people who deal with this day to day ☺️
     
  54. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    https://groceries.morrisons.com/web...VwrDtCh1Z8QQCEAQYASABEgKSHPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    This is the Butchers Choice which is probably a good bet. Very reasonably priced, higher meat content and no "various sugars" . I don't think it's available in all supermarkets though - this link is from Morrisons. Sainsburys used to do it but IDK if they still do. So if you want to give it a go you may have to shop around.

    I think what I'd do now is this... try the Sainsburys food (gradually) with all your cats. Monitor Sox's bg a couple of hours after he's eaten some of it. If it doesn't cause his bg to rise steeply and unexpectedly, fine, you should be able to continue feeding it. If it looks as if it causes a spike, feed it to the other cats and try Sox on Butchers instead, which is less likely to cause an issue. When switching from one brand to another either mix a little of both together to start with, or try mixing some of the new food with a little plain cooked chicken over a couple of days and that should be ok.

    You'll get there sooner than you think... look how much you've taken on board in the last few days alone :)
     
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  55. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Okie dokie. Not the butcher's classic then? Think that one is just a 4% meat one.

    Will do. I've mixed abit of the Sainsbury's one in his food tonight. So I'll test him first thing when I get up in the morning.

    I'm hoping so .still looks like a lot to learn though I'm sure I'll get there ☺️
     
  56. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Choice/Classic, are they different? Sorry, not sure about that, I just found the one above. Will revisit tomorrow, it's my bedtime now!
    Get a good rest and we'll see what tomorrow brings ;)
     
  57. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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  58. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    I think we'll have to call in our food expert @Elizabeth and Bertie here! I didn't know there were both Choice and Classic brands. Have never fed these to my cats as I find the smaller pouches or trays more convenient, but that's not to say I don't like the look of the contents. Butchers does have a good reputation for having no icky ingredients and it's very cheap for some reason. I don't know about the variety packs though, from what I can see there may be more fish than you'd like.
    @Elizabeth and Bertie ? What do you reckon?
     
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  59. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    The 'Butcher's' foods get quite confusing... :confused:

    The one that always seems to be readily available in the UK is the 'Butcher's Classic'.
    But they seem to produce other foods from time to time that are around for a while and then disappear. 'Butcher's really meaty' and 'really fishy' are still around in some places, and are lower carb than the 'Butcher's Classic'. But the 'really meaty/really fishy' are no longer on the manufacturer's website... There was also 'Butcher's Choice' which seemed to come and go...
    And there are now two cat foods on the website that are only available on one online store in the UK where postage starts at £12.... I'm guessing they are selling more to mainland Europe now; and they also seem to be expanding their dog food range, so maybe they are focussing in that area..?

    Anyway, I'm rambling.... :oops:

    The Sainsbury's food looks fine in terms of % calories from carbs. ...Yes, it does contain 'various sugars', as so many cat foods do these days. The extent to which that affects the kitty's blood glucose may depend on the cat's sensitivity to carbs. It really can be a matter of 'trial and error' to find out what works for the individual kitty...
    But the Butcher's Classic is well worth a try also. It's been used by UK'ers for over a decade here, and used to be one of the few reliable low carb foods around.

    Becki, since the blood glucose is creeping up I'd suggest getting Sox onto a low carb wet food as soon as poss, over a few days maybe; and see how that brings the numbers down over the following few days.
    The longer your kitty sits in high blood glucose levels the harder it can be to get it back into a normal range. The cells of the body get damaged by 'glucose toxicity' which makes it hard for the cells to absorb glucose from the blood. The more damaged they are the longer they take to heal, and the harder it can be to heal. And meanwhile the glucose is building up in the blood, unable to get into the cells.
    I think it's 'crunch time' to see whether the blood glucose will come down sufficiently with low carb diet alone, or whether insulin will be needed. If it turns out that insulin is needed at least you'll have had time and opportunity to see what your kitty's baseline blood glucose level is on a low carb diet. And that is useful info to have when deciding insulin dosage.

    It can be helpful - if you are able - to feed smaller meals more often, rather than just feeding a couple of larger meals. This stimulates the recovering pancreas to produce insulin without overwhelming it with too much to do at any one time.

    Eliz
     
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  60. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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  61. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    @Elizabeth and Bertie

    Thank you for that. I started on the sainsburys food last night mixing it in with his food so I'm hoping he should be on that one completely in the next couple of days.
    So you think I'm ok to trial the Sainsbury's one for now. How long would you say to try it before maybe making the switch to butcher's if it's not working?
    Thank you
     
  62. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Elizabeth may be able to explain this better than I can, but in a nutshell: how long it takes to find out whether a particular food is "working" or not (ie drops bg or not) is really a matter of how much data you can collect to compare bg whilst being fed that food compared with bg before being fed that food. At present you're not testing a lot because you don't need to as you're not giving insulin. But you do want to find out if the Sainsbury's food, initially, will lower bg. So if you can, you could do a mini curve today and see what bg is like at certain points in a 12-hour cycle. Ideally, test before feeding and then one hour and two hours later and maybe halfway through the day. That will give you an idea as to whether this food is causing a spike. If you do this say today and tomorrow you'll get a general picture of how bg is affected by this food. If the food shows a steep spike, probably caused by the sugars etc, then you may need to try another food without sugars - say one of the Butcher's - and repeat the testing exercise. If Butchers turns out not to cause a steep spike, you can settle for that for a few days and then you'd know if bg is still high enough to warrant insulin.

    As I think I said earlier, this is all trial and error and it does take time. We often say here that we wish we had a magic wand to make things easier but in the absence of such, it's a matter of working gradually towards the best outcome possible for your individual cat... I say your individual cat because every cat is different and may metabolise food and insulin in different ways. So we can provide guidelines but it's up to individual caregivers to work out what's best for their cat.

    So the stage you're at is really collecting data to make comparisons on different foods, and is will take time because you need to give each food at least a couple of days before moving on to another one.

    Let's see if Elizabeth can add anything to this.
     
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  63. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    No, Diana, I can't think of anything to add to that! :cat:
     
  64. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Great thank you. It's just really hard for me to do bloods through the day as I work 9 to 5 Monday to Friday I will be attempting the curve on Sunday as I have the whole day in the house then so can give it a good go. ☺️
     
  65. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    So I managed to finish work early today.
    I tested Sox when I got in and his BG was at 15.1 (271.8) (at 2.45pm) so had lowered from its 17 (306) when tested at 7am this morning.
    I then fed some food.
    BG at 3.50pm 15.9 (286)
    BG at 4.50pm 16.8 (302)
    Was hoping to get another test in before bed time but I only have one strip left and my Amazon order of strips has not arrived yet which was ment to be here yesterday
    Just wondering what people think of those readings is that a normal increase after eating?
     
  66. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's normal to see a bg increase after eating so no surprise there. It looks as if Sox might have a "default" number in the mid teens which isn't too bad really (some diabetics are way up in the 20s most of the time).
    Running out of strips is only an emergency when you're giving insulin and need to test pre shot, but this does show you that you'll need to keep stocked up. Many people buy strips on ebay which is usually cheaper.
    See what happens when you get some more strips and can test over the course of a day. The Sainsburys food could be spiking bg a bit so it would be interesting to see a curve on Butcher's.
    Don't worry too much - you're going as fast as you can go atm and as we've said, the testing process and the data you're collecting is all useful if you do end up having to give insulin.
     
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  67. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    I've just received my order yay.
    So will do 1 more test before feeding tonight. Then will do a full day curve on Sunday when I'm in all day.

    Glad to see that it's quiet normal to go up then after eating.
    Hoping that default number might creep a little lower again back to the 10.5 I got previously. ☺️

    Edited last reading of the day 8.50pm BG 18.6 (334)

    Do you tend to find BG is always higher morning and night?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  68. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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  69. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    At the bottom of this page, click on Ingredients:

    https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/rafine/animonda_carny_adult/585477

    Animonda is a good brand. I fed my cat their von Feinstein variety until recently - I had to stop it because she loved it so much she gobbled up a whole tray at a time and asked for more!
     
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  70. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Just checked on Elizabeth's food list which says that this food has 7.8% cals from carbs.
    It's all beef-based food though - are your cats ok with that? Some are allergic. Generally speaking, cats tend to do best on a poultry based diet, usually easy to source and and you can vary with other foods as and when of course.
     
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  71. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    None of my cats are overly fussy they eat pretty much anything lol
     
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  72. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Actually I was going to suggest Animonda if you were willing to buy from Zooplus, because I thought they did some big tins that might suit your multi-cat household.
    I see Diana has already mentioned that they are beef-based (which can be an issue for some kitties). But if your kitties are OK with beef this food could be a good bet for you.

    Another Zooplus food that may be of interest to you is Bozita. Bozita is chicken-based, I think. Both the cans and the tetrapacks 'in jelly' have been tried by UK'ers with diabetic kitties. The cans are are more solid, the tetrapacks have more jelly/water.
    The Bozita foods are here if you want to take a peek:
    https://www.zooplus.co.uk/esearch.h...=Category_facet%3D1%3A1Cat%3EWet%20Cat%20Food

    Just don't buy anything in bulk initially because your cats will know somehow and then refuse to eat it, haha! :p
    .
     
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  73. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    @Elizabeth and Bertie yeah I did think that maybe try the 6 pack first you know what cats can be like.

    I'm going to give the Sainsbury's food a good week at least and then see between butcher's and animonda.

    Main difference between those is just the meat content isn't it? ☺️
     
  74. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    It seems so. The Animonda seems to have more meat and a bit less water.
    .
     
  75. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    @Elizabeth and Bertie so either might be a good choice then, or would you recommend one over the other? Suppose it's dependant on price really.
     
  76. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    And on what your cats prefer... :rolleyes:
    Both foods are well worth a shot....
     
  77. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Great thank you @Elizabeth and Bertie

    Do you recommend anything as well to stop kitties ears getting to sore from testing like any cream to rub on.

    So much to learn about this feline diabetes but thanks to every one on here I think I'm starting to understand it ☺️
     
  78. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Morning guys so I'm starting my curve today.
    Sox has been mixed over to the Sainsbury's food which last night was the first full bowl of that meat on its own. So today will be his first proper day eating just that.
    This morning he measured BG 19.7 (354) which has been the highest reading I've took off him during the last week. (I have just wondered though if he may be abit stressy due to fireworks going off in the night)
    @Elizabeth and Bertie @Diana&Tom my question is should I give the Sainsburys food a bit longer to get used to or should I after today start swapping to butcher's classic?
    Thanks guys
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  79. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Well I wouldn't chop and change food too quickly really, although it's good that your cats seem to eat anything. It looks as if the Sainsbury's food with sugars is spiking bg so if you have some Butcher's already you could mix some of that with some of the existing food and see if that makes a difference. If bg is still well into double figures you may have to prepare yourself for giving insulin. As we have said, it's not good for bg to stay high and for the diabetes to remain untreated so if numbers can be brought down with insulin you may have to go down that road as your next option.
     
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  80. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Yeah possibly I was hoping that we could really go diet route cause I cant really see how we will be able to afford the insulin from how I've heard people talk about the cost. We've been given an initial set up fee of 300 pound .
    How much average is it a month for the insulin and supplies. I know it differs due to the amount of insulin but a ball park figure would be great
     
  81. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    £300 sounds excessive, you can buy supplies online much more cheaply than getting them from the vet.
     
  82. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    I have attached the paperwork with break down given from the vets
     

    Attached Files:

  83. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Becki, it's a shame to see those numbers coming up. ...Did Sox seem particularly stressed by the fireworks?

    Would be good to get some numbers at points through the day. But it won't technically be a 'curve' because that is a series of tests to see how the insulin works in the cat's system over a (usually) 12 hour period.

    When not on insulin, it is useful to see how the cat responds to food. What is the number like before food? An hour after? Two hours after? Does the blood glucose go up a little or a lot after food? Does it go down rather than go up? You may see an initial rise and then a drop if the cat's body is releasing insulin.
    The numbers seem to be trending upwards though, quite different to how things seemed to be looking at the outset... Personally, I'd try him on the Butcher's food for a day and see if that brings the numbers down. But even if the numbers do come down it seems likely at this point that insulin is going to be needed...

    Because Sox's numbers are creeping up it would be wise to check his pee for ketones. Lack of insulin or insufficient insulin can cause ketones to be produced, and these can build up to cause a very dangerous condition called DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis).
    The test is simple and only involves dipping the end of a ketone test strip ('Ketostix') into a drop of pee; then timing it for a certain number of seconds, and checking the result. Crumpling clingfilm loosely in the litter tray (over the litter) is often an easy way to catch a little sample.
    Anything over a 'trace' result is a reason to talk to your vet ASAP.
    And because not all ketones are registered by the strips do also have an awareness of how your kitty's breath smells. If it smells fruity or like acetone that can indicate ketones.

    Eliz
     
  84. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Becki, there are a number of things there you can save money on (not least by using a human meter, and doing curves at home).
    And some of the things can be bought online far more cheaply....
     
  85. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    I know @Elizabeth and Bertie I though he was going so well at the start of the week.
    He seemed fine with the fire works while we were up and have TV on. Not sure though after we went to bed and it was quiet... They were going on quiet late into the night.
    What sort of things do you guys but online just the needles and get the insulin from the vets?
    I'll see how my readings go today
     
  86. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    If there is any possibility of doing so, I would ask if the vet can prescribe Prozinc rather than Caninsulin, because Prozinc is made specifically for cats. (Prozinc did well in the remission trials at the Royal Veterinary College.)

    You may be able to save money on insulin by asking your vet for a prescription. A prescription will cost you about £15 probably, so you'll need to check prices online to see if you can save money that way. That is the only 'prescription' item though that I can see....
    Pretty much everything else can be bought online, for example here:
    https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/search/go?asug=&w=caninsulin

    Eliz
     
  87. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and you can get a tube of glucose (made for baking!) in any supermarket for a just quid or two. Although honey is fine too.
    .
     
  88. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    Ok thank you. When I next see them if we're going the insulin route I'll mention that too then.
    Is the glucose that your recommending in place of the glucogel tube? What's that actually for?
    Will the insulin that they provide last a month?
    I'll look on that site too.
    Just done his second reading were coming down 16.1
    He's such a troublesome cat likes to stress me out but I love him lol
     
  89. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Glucose is good to have to hand in case a cat goes too low (hypo - a potentially very serious situation). It's wise to read up on all this before you start giving insulin, so you can be aware of the possibility and the signs. Hopefully you'd avoid that if you were dosing low to start with and testing before every shot.

    A vial of insulin should last well over a month but depending on how much you give each dose, of course. Other ongoing costs really aren't so bad if you shop online and buy things well in advance to prevent the need to buy urgent supplies from the vet or a high street chemist. Same goes for strips - many people buy these on ebay where they can be found much more cheaply - just check the sellers' reputation.

    If you haven't seen it yet, it would be good to read up more on treating FD with insulin because it does look likely that that's what you'll have to do. There are a couple of guides here that I'll try to link. Knowledge is power!
     
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  90. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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  91. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Just looked at this and I think you can definitely shave a lot off these costs. There is NO need for an in-house curve or a fructo test, for one thing. A fructo test is simply a blood test that takes bg measurements over a period of two or three weeks and comes up with a number that determines if a cat is diabetic or not, or to what degree it is controlled. You don't need that if you are testing at home regularly. So that saves a big chunk already. You also don't need the Alphatrak starter kit as you have your own meter and you can get strips from ebay, as I mentioned before.

    You may or may not have to get insulin from the vet but syringes can def be bought cheaper online from several sites that we can tell you about.
     
  92. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Ok great thank you.

    I suppose once I've got my head round it and know what I can get supply wise from cheaper places it will get a lot easier.
    Think it's just abit scary to start with isn't it.
     
  93. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does get easier, I think you'll be fine :)
     
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  94. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    So bloods for today

    8.45am 19.7
    Breakfast
    11.00am 16.1
    1.00pm 16.0
    3.00pm 15.2 (100% meat treats given)
    5.00pm 16.0
    7.00pm 19.0
    9.00pm 18.2
    10.30pm 17.3
    (Between 5 and 7 theres been quiet alot of fire works going off, could have accounted for the big jump between that time)
    Just my final reading at 9pm to do and then will mix some butcher in with his food see how he is with that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  95. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    OK well these numbers could be worse - some cats are well into the 20s when they're first dx. But these are definite diabetic numbers. I'd be surprised if a different food made a huge difference - but then you never know. Hopefully though it will make some difference and everything you can do to reduce carb intake should help. So if you now feed Butchers for a day or two, the readings you get then will be as low as you're going to see and you'll know whether you have to get started on insulin. If this is the case, don't delay too much - the sooner you start treatment the more manageable it should be.
     
  96. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    @Diana&Tom yeah I did think at least there at least stable but still too high.
    Will try mixing it in tonight and give it a day or 2. And then speak to the vets.

    Are the vets usually ok with you saying you want to order your supplies on line and not through them... Or do some get a bit funny with you doing that?
     
  97. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

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    Becki, you're in charge your cat and your finances, and you can choose to buy supplies wherever you like! I've not heard of vets getting funny about buying online, they're probably used to people doing that these days. They *might* try to persuade you to buy through them because they're making more profit from you, but there's no other reason for them to push you into It. If they do try to persuade you, stand your ground and ask "what are the advantages to me of buying through you?" - they'll have no answer to that. Or you could say that you've done a lot of research and found that you can buy supplies at a good price and you have no choice because you're on a tight budget... short of them asking to see your bank statements, they'd have no answer to that either!
     
  98. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    Yeah that's what I was thinking. Just in the way I was asking about a human meter they were quiet pushy for the alphatrak.
    But yes I'll definitely stand my ground with them.
     
  99. majandra

    majandra Member

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    Oct 11, 2018
    Welcome Becki!

    Looks like you are in a similar stage of the game as I am with Rhubarb. Tried diet change first, fixed dental issues, and now waiting a week or two for things to settle before starting insulin. I'm still playing a little bit with foods to see if anything is better.
    One thing I have noticed is Rhubarb's glucose is usually higher first thing in the morning before I feed, something I will have to keep in mind once insulin starts. I noticed others commented already about food affecting cats differently.

    I hope all goes well with your next vet visit! I don't have much to offer for support yet, but I know for me, it's nice seeing someone else in a similar position.
     
  100. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    Hi @majandra

    I've found my 2nd food type now I'm trying I'm hoping this one maybe better as it doesn't say it contains various sugars or vegetable origin like alot of the wet foods do.
    So I'm hoping I may see a little difference here.
    If not it looks like it will be insulin route but I'm hoping we won't need a great deal due to the numbers been a little lower.
    Yeah Sox did drop the first couple of days quiet low down to 10.6 (189) one if the mornings but that seems to have gone higher now. Not sure if we're running abut higher though with all the fireworks going off the past few days.

    Just see where we go from here. Hopefully Sox and rhubarb will start to settle soon
     

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